My vote is Yes.
One thing that is disappointing me at the moment is the fact that my champions are really weedy and useless. They have horribly expensive equipment and once you start getting big stacks/monsters they are literally rubbish unless skilled for magic.
Personally, if they are going to be in the tactical battles I would love to see them kick ass in them. I would prefer to spend more time levelling my champions, crafting them armour and skilling them then having just boring stacks of 12 archers/soldiers.
I was watching Lord of the Rings last night again and really wish I could craft a kick ass champion who would take down a stack of 12 with no sweat.
I think that their stats need to be beefed up mightily. Something along the lines of each level getting 5 points to distribute, with automatic increases in HP and Essence (if imbued).
EDIT : They are cost ineffective as well, to buy the champ often costs ~100 Gildar, to equip reasonably costs 100's and they level worse than stacks. At the moment they are only useful to explore the map as disposable troops or station in cities to boost economy (which is fair enough for some champs as I take them for their bonuses).
On another note, the item shop needs to be severely overhauled, at the moment it is like a 1990 JRPG shop. You can only sell and buy in seperate screens and you can't even see what you currently have equipped. Get rid of the annoying merchant in the middle and lets see a proper equipment screen so I can manage my hero properly.
you did. I am about to type the strat to you as we speak. please explain your ENCHANT comment though. And also, remember, my arguement was never that Bows are not OP, or Daggers are OP, or The best way to win is with OP heroes, or most importantly, MY OP HEROES WILL KILL YOU IN MULTIPLAYER.
That being said, I reiterate, my arguement stands, Heroes can be made OP, and will be nerfed before Buffed. And I can ROFLSTOMP the AI (this is a single player game after all) with the tools given.
Gonna start typing the strat now.
in PM
Oh the enchant thing was pretty straight forward, the buffing spells - burning sword etc stack. You can keep casting them for cumulative effect.
I want a game where I understand the result most of the time. Losing units in combat against overwhelming numbers makes sense. Losing against equal odds makes sense. Losing againt stronger units makes sense.
Losing against a single vastly inferior unit because you rolled a 0 does not make sense. Losing against an equal unit where you get one shot and the other unit *doesn't get damaged at all* doesn't make sense. Fighting something where for 5 rounds you roll high and are invincible, and then roll low and suddenly die doesn't make sense.
These are random outcomes. Combat outcomes need to be determined by army composition (units, skills, equipment), terrain, and tactical effects. A bit of randomness is thrown in to make things interesting and somewhat less predictable (you don't want an ATT 9 unit to beat an ATT 8 unit 100% of the time). But there's a very finite limit to that.
Elemental is on the wrong side of it when it comes to defense rolls. When you get a bad roll the outcome can be so wildly divergant from any other outcome that you aren't playing a strategy game anymore. You're just throwing dice and hoping you win more rolls then the other guy. That's not fun, nor does it require any particular skill.
The Civ series was long bashed for this because of the Spearman defeating Tanks nonsense in previous games. I don't want the same thing in Elemental. As soon as the player thinks "dang, I was just defeated by the RNG" rather then "dang, I wish I could have saved that unit", the game is going the wrong way.
I can completely understand the "irritating & frustrating" side of luck. In the game of ASL (you may or may not be familiar with), it uses a two die six method for "to-hit" and IFT purposes. Low rolls are better and a "snakeys" or 1,1 is usually considered a critical hit. Usually, if you're at the recieveing end of CH, you're dead, as it either doubles the armor penetration (against AFVs & tends to turn them into burning wrecks with no crew surival possible) or doubles the high explosive effect against infantry with a reverse TEM (buildings & pillboxes are death traps to CHs). ASL if a very complex "deep" game where even luck can be managed to some extent by a player that knows how to minimize risk (risk vs reward).
Anyway, I don't really have a problem with the concept of extreme luck .. is it possible that someone could lose a battle a battle against an inferior unit because you rolled a 0 ... sure, I don't see why not. Someone could chuck that dagger through a vision slit in your helmet turning that armor factor into a 0. It *is* possible after all, should it happen all the time? hell no, then what's a reasonable frequency? 1 out of 12, one out of 100? depends on the game & reality ... and, just because it's 1 out of 100, that doesn't mean you won't roll that 1/00 three times in a row (or 1 in a million ... after all people do win the mega millions lottery at even wose odds). Some (computer) random number generators are not so random, due to the use of "seeding" which is based on (clock) time. As a result, sometimes a bunch of quick back-to-back die or dice rolls will result in a disproportianate number of duplicates or "stuck" rolls (called "sticking" in other forums) ... There have actually been huge debates on other forums over computer generated random numbers and "seeding" vs how dice rolls come out in reality (i.e. physically rolling them with your hands using a set of "fair" dice). Believe it or not, I've seen players roll thousands of dice rolls and compare them on charts vs "computer generated seeded" dice rolls and compare the results. This is one of those "heated" debate topics that occurs in some games. Does this happen in this game? I don't know, I'd guess so, but frankly if has happened it hasen't bothered me in the least because the AI is so damn weak.
.. I don't ask myself "if it makes sense?" rather "is it possible?" if it is possible, what's a reasonable frequency? I have no idea how this particular game models critical hits (or "luck") as far as (in)frequency goes, it's simply not explained in the manual [that's for Admiral Xia] I don't feel like I've been hindered by CHs or "luck" myself, but I also don't mind losing heroes now and then, shit happens. I just take my losses, shrug it off, and move on. I've grown thick-skinned and try to focus on the bigger picture of winning the game as a whole & not individual units. I'm a strategy game player, not a RPGr, so if I lose Sir RootinTootinHelluvaGuyMassiveStud I could care less, he's just one guy whose death needs to move me closer to victory. I probably average losing 3 to 6 heroes a game, usually due to AI spellcasters & very occasionally a wandering monster that I've underestimated. They never get killed in melee from my perspective because I never use them that way. Heroes are all spellcasters and/or archers in my games, or get put in a city to use their special bonus.
Far as I know there's no critical hits. Basic combat results are a roll(0...Attack) - roll(0..Defense). A result > 0 is damage, otherwise you miss. They're just straight random numbers, with no weighting.
The result is that with large numbers (particularly without very large HP pools), the numbers get wildly unpredictable. Roll a 50 on defense and you're basically invincible that turn. Roll a 0 and a unit with an attack score a small fraction of your defense score can one shot you. There's little rhyme or reason to some of the results I've seen, and it completely destroyed the belief that I was playing a strategy game.
Strategy doesn't matter when your unit can simply die randomly because its defense stat fails to work that turn. At the same time your unit may blow up the enemy unit... or it might not damage it at all for a few turns.
agree. But I think that until the game is completely balanced/fleshed out this will be a problem. I feel that once they have unit and item balances to where they want them, they will be able to fix "random" number rolls. But this may be wishful thinking.
I agree that this is a very simplistic system that would result in a wild variation of dice rolls. In my opinion this system is too simplistic to adequately show differences between blunt, piercing, slashing, and magical attack types (electrical, fireball, earthen). Adequately modeling these in a "logical" way is going to require a more complicated, in-depth & realistic T-combat system. An attack "range" vs a defense "range" is, frankly, insufficient to model these kind of differences, with magical resistance added to the mix as well. Perhaps a "real-time" T-combat system instead of Turn-based one would've been a better choice if this is the case. Sometimes "simpler" does not necessarily make "better".
The funny thing is though, I recently saw a forest drake do exactly 38 HPs of damage (and I do mean *exactly* 38 points of damage for 4 consecutive attacks over two combat rounds) killing one of my most powerful horse archer squads. Given what you say above about the random attack range, I'm wondering if that was a bug or something? Rolling an exact 38 (attack - defense) difference for four consecutive attacks would approach the 1 in 100 million probablility level range.
Personally, I think that Dominions III has one of the best fantasy tactical-combat simulators around today. Takes just about everything into account, very realistically & well, especially long range archery and spells. Defending wizards actually use that "duplicate" spell making two or three of themselves for defensive purposes. Heroes die all the time in that game, even from old age when not in combat. Units that actually flee when morale breaks decide battles more often than not, which is a great thing, and mounted units that actually flank around the enemy' main body to attack the rear ... too cool. Hopefully Tac combat will improved to this level when the 1.1 version comes out ... at least I'm hoping they make horses faster.
Ok so a follow up to Fishslayer's method of winning the game in a an unbeatable fashion.
To summarize: he uses one of several methods documented in the forums that are a complaint of the current rule implementation of the game. He has documented his experiences and forwarded the results to the devs to ensure for a better playing experience, there is no fudging of game files involved, all legit. Just one of the problems of the current game system.
why balance for an existing (bad) system when you're just going to change the system soon anyway? i'd rather they got on with implementing something fun now instead of tweaking Attack values in a way that will quickly be made redundant in a few versions time?
You can't "balance" the current system anyway, MoM wasn't balanced either. Invincible units were aplenty, and cheese ball counter spells or your own invincible unit were the only way you killed them.
They're part of the same system. If you have a combat system that takes stats and then uses a RNG result along with those stats to determine the result, how you come up with the number is a fairly important detail of the whole system.
If it gets changed, it'll likely get changed at the same time as the stats themselves get looked at.
The version that most (probably 75%) game systems use is AF -DV + a random roll, in *very* simplified terms, with a seperate attack roll (or effect) for sucessful hits.
So, for example, if this method was applied in this game you'd have, say, attack value of 20 - defense value of 40 results in a modifier of -20 (20-40 = -20) now both players get a random roll to add to their attack or defense, some games use 6 sided die, others 10 or 12 whatever. say we used 12 sided dice, attacker rolls 12 and defender rolls 1: 12-1 = 9 add the -20 modifier calculated above and you get: 9-20 = -11, negative number would still indicate a "miss." the final possible range of results would be -9 to -31 (a 22 point possible spread using 12 sided die as RNG: impossible to hit without a CH component: if a hit "was" possible it would do "weapon" damage plus a random roll: say 4 for a mace + die 12 roll or 5 to 16 possible point spread range of damage for "normal" hits). In the system we now have, using this same example, we have a range of 20 to -40 point spread (or a 60 point spread where attacker hits roughly 1/3 the time silmulataneously doing from 1 to 20 damage when hitting). What a difference!!
The difference with the most "common" system is that you're guaranteed the full effect of both your attack and defender's defense rating, making the results much more "predictable" as Tidus noted in the other post. That gurantee doesn't hold in the system now. The downside is that it would be impossible to hit (or miss) if the difference between atk and defense was too high. Most games add the possiblility of CHs to always insure the attacker a small chance, some games use "open ended" rolls like Dominions III, so for example if you roll a 12 you get to roll again and sum the rolls. Usually there's not such a disparity between atk and defense ratings (at least in most games I play).
Probably a good idea would be to add the attacker's and defender's combat levels as modifiers too, which would be a realistic modifier that takes into account experience. Of course, there could be a whole slew of ways I could add mods & make melee more realistic, but at a very basic "simple" level the first paragraph with the "common" method (adding CH possibility) would be preferable to the way it is now. Also, magic resistance needs to be separate from physical defense, that's a 200% necessity. Other rock/paper/scissors factorizations are needed to equalize macemen/archers/2-handed swordsman/magic users. 3guys attacking one guy in melee should get some kind of multiple attack "to hit" bonus, that's a given in pretty much most games like this. Guys attacking someone from behind should also get an attack bonus. It should also be possible to negate a shield defense for some probability range or multiple attack/rear situation, which would also be highly realistic. Auto-adding a shield defense against two guys attacking from both front and rear silmultaneously is just silly.
But who knows? 1.1 is supposed to overhaul everything, so who knows how Tac Combat will be affected. It can only improve from my perspective.
In fact, most dragon have true domage and ignore armor everytime and the spell act like the archer: everytime they will hit with full power. The only thing that will make that changed is the terrain defense. So, when you use your dragon (I dont know if you use them) and you use their special attack (firebreath if I recall correctly) you'll do the same dommage over and over and over every time.
It was just a wandering monster, a forest drake, but I only saw it happen this one time so I think it was an anomaly. Maybe teh drake has different effects vs different type of troops or armor combos, but I don't know it doesn't say anything about this in the manual. I'm thinking it's just a but, but I just don't know.
The ergog egg, dragon thing is broken on my system, so I've never been able to use that dragon.
Have you tried to recruit dragon via diplomacy?
he he, I usually don't get past level one diplomacy with caravans before switching to something else like military tech. I think the diplomacy tree is my least-used tree.
Foret drakes are the one monster that doesn't alwyas do the same thing, most of the time it 1) moves forward and attacks normally with a very strong melee attack, but sometimes 2) moves a square & fires breath, repeat each round
90%+ of the time it does 1) but sometimes drakes do the 2) ... I think it might be tied to level, or perhaps some other factor.
Oh, you're not the bureaucrate type
I prefer to carry a big stick and not speak at all
just crack skulls
After all, war is just diplomacy by alternate means.
... of course, that dragon could certainly serve as one big stick, provided it could be gotten early enough into the game. What diplomatic tech unlocks that dragon quest? I thought it was tied to the adventure techs?
Well, you must first research unlikely friends(spider), then Friends with pariden(or the fallen race dont remember but it's unlock the shrill), then the third race(drath) and after Dance with the dragon(dragon).I think you must have the Treaties unlocked before beginning the unlikely friends research. For your information, Dragon cannot be made by squad, cost 1000 gold to create but have (IIRC) 70/70 and a true dommage attack that does around 72 dmg with no range limit.
That's interesting, I'll have to try this out in my next game. Hopefully it's not broken on my system like the quest is.
I am with yah on this. I don't play these types of games to "win". I play them for the adventure and role play and really to see how long I can last vs the ai on the ultimate level of difficulty. That's why Master of Magic still survives on my hard drive today. It really is the "perfect" fantasty strategy empire building game. If you RUSH through it or any of these others you will MISS SO MUCH. All the weapons and armor and trinkets you can build and find. I never tried to end a game of MOM until I had opened every cave, crypt, tower or dungeon icon on the map and captured every node that was open. Elemental needs that and not an RTS GRUNT RUSH type of game.
This is why they MUST NOT BALANCE this game for multiplayer as it will RUIN the single player game. Brad has already stated many times that nothing will be sacrificed in the single player game for the multiplayer game and I just hope he didn't lie about that.
I'm all for OVERPOWERED AI by LEVELS of DIFFICULTY like Galactic Civilization II. That is one of the best games with the best AI I've ever played. I like the challenge of unbalanced races and even cheats by difficulty levels. Of course I'd like a Big Blue AI but I know that's not possible but at least try.
Since multiplayer can charitably be described as "weak" in this game (and more accurately descibed as "not fully implemented"), I don't think there's a whole lot to worry about.
Dont you mean Deep blue?
Deep or Big I all for an AI like one of them ) Give me/us an ai that will make us cry and whine and scream because it's so HARD not because it's lame and so easy on its hardest difficulty.
Hier Hier
... a weak AI doesn't work for me & will ultimately decide how long I stick with the game. The AI in this game needs a lot of work in several different areas. I'm hoping for a big improvement in 1.1 for the AI, otherwise I'm going back to Distant Worlds. I play to win & get the highest score against a tough AI, which is enjoyment to me, not to waste time pushing counters around & dreading game crashes.
Quality of AI is directly proportional to a games "fun" level or enjoyabality:
Hard AI that's a serious challenge = loads of fun,
lame, weak AI = lame game.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account