As most would agree, the ability to port your Stack Of Doom (tm) clear across the world at the cost of 5 mana was game breaking.Once you had any children with in-combat mana regen, the cost became absolutely trivial and with it the entire concept of movement or garrisoning.And with 4X games being about growing ones empire, balancing a dominant strategy like teleport on a fixed cost is a recipe for failure.
MOIISKA pointed out one possible solution... which got me started...
Note that all numbers, that are mentioned anywhere here, are only there for visualisation. I talk about the system here, not any particular number. This is a thread in the Ideas forum without knowing how the game and mana balance will work out in 1.1 it would be completely futile to assign any cost at this point.(Yes, some seriously wanted to argue about a particular number in here. I kid you not.)
Spell: Teleport should have a base cost of 4. For that price it only ports the channeler around.
Every additional unit in your stack adds +2 mana to the cost of the spell.
Porting a stack of 3 would cost 8 mana, a stack of 12 would cost 26.
Spell: Teleport Friends would have a fixed cost of 10, plus 0.5 for every additional unit.
So 16 mana for a full stack. With a stack size of 5, either spell costs 12 mana. Any more units and Teleport group is cheaper.
Travel speed
Right now Teleport is instant. That is the bit that is entirely too strong. You can port to the other side of the continent, have a quick skirmish, and be home for dinner.
Magical transportation should still have a time component and it should not be entirely predictable. I say: If you cast Teleport, this stack is put in limbo - completely unaccessible by any means - and will appear at the destination 2-4 turns later. Much like a MOO2 fleet would be "in hyperspace" for 4 turns and you could not alter it's destination before it arrived.
Travel time could scale with distance teleported although it should still have a small random element at least. Scaling mana cost the same way is probably too messy because you wouldn't find out if you can cast the spell at all until you had selected the destination.
If you only have one Teleporting Stack Of Doom (tm), then this may actually become your weakness. Yes, you teleported towards where the intruders are coming from. You can probably even kick their butt before they do any harm to your cities. But what if this was not the real attack? If they simply turn around and deny you the open field battle your Stack Of Doom is built for? What about the 2 smaller stacks that were sneaking around or used sea transports to stab you in the back? The Stack Of Doom would take up to 8 turns to turn around and that can be a very long time. A powerful spell / ability / strategy is balanced if sole reliance on that strategy results in a weakness.
Other potential features in no particular order
Elemental Teleport Variants after all, Elemental is the name of the game...
The quickly increasing cost of the low level Teleport is actually a good thing.It gives us a reason to pick the Air book (which costs reasonable pick points now!) and research Teleport Friends.
Teleport Friends would eventually take over once your empire and your army grows.Teleport can remain the early and general spell and an expensive fall-back for players without the Air book.Sometimes you absolutely have to teleport, regardless of having the group port or not. Regardless of the cost.That should not immediately be a game over situation (No, you cannot teleport that army!) but merely put a painful dent in your mana supply so it turns into a temporary setback.That creates another option to think about. Another case of pricey but worth it.
Of course, I don't know if the numbers work out like this. This is only a draft for a system that could work.Maybe Teleport is still too good and needs to cost +2.5 or +3 mana for every passenger unit. Until we know the mana situation in 1.1, it's all guesswork.
Related: [Suggestion] Travel takes too long, add Gate spells.
I would remove teleport completely or make it optional. But if it stays I'd say limit it as much as possible!!! Only the caster can use it for SINGLE units, only heroes not armies or stacks EVER EVER!
Listen, just get rid of it, why even bother making a huge map with mountans and seas, build boats or having horses or any other trivial movement enhancing (1point big deal!!) item. You want an epic feeling, but then you can just have your best heroes instantly come back from the war and defend their home town and then popping back in the midst of the battle, the very same turn? Are we out of our mind?
You can try to balance it as much as you want but Teleport spoils the whole concept of an epic game, no amount of penalties or added cost could ever counter-balance the way this feature spoils the game! Imagine a Epic novel where units can just teleport! No Lord of the Rings: Frodo could just immediately teleport back and forth from mount Doom, no Odyssey: Odysseus would just get back to Ithaka from Troy in a second: NO MORE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD!!
Teleport must go!
RH: nice adjustment. I wasn't thinking the mechanics, just suggesting a possible solution. I am onboard with you.
BK: think Robert Jordan: WoT transportation modes. That is what I was alluding to. I really like how he handled it.
Sorry I am not familiar with that book/game - But the whole concept of EPIC always turns around a long travel. The exact opposite of what Teleport brings.
Go look at the Age Of Wonders Shadow Magic forum: they burned the house down in order for the developers to make teleport optional.
Pages like this prove how much the AOW community was against this "vile sci-fi feature":
http://members.multimania.co.uk/btooic/index.html
Early on in the book series teleportation was done through way-gates where it created a shortcut between two points, like a wormhole. Unfortunately, this system was corrupted by evil/chaos etc, and it became very dangerous and unreliable. Later, it was rediscovered that there were two ways to move huge distances in a short amount of time. One way was by opening a hole in time and travelling a short distance on energy platforms in a space/limbo equivalent, so instead of travelling 1000 miles, you only travelled 1 or 10 on a platform that floated between the two pints. The second way was creating an instant gate petween two spots that anyone can use to cross back and forth.
I can ofcourse explain it in more details, but that should suffice.
Remove teleport completly and instead let the player build portals in their towns later in the game or something..
Or keep teleport and let it only work on build portals in towns. I.e. channeler casts teleport, a window pops up with all cities that have an portal, channeller choses destination, done.
Nah, no artificial "select destination" window.
Such a town portal feature would have to be integrated with the pathing so it automatically includes the gates if it results in a shorter travel time.But even then the travel should not be instanteous because the magical roads in MoM, connecting all your cities, made any sort of defence pretty weird.One defensive stack was enough even it if was on the other side of the world.Once you send unit's "into the gate" they should emerge at the destination 2-3 turns later.
Actually, that would be a feature to consider for Teleport, too...
Teleport costs mana and linits the other stuff you can do. The cost will have to be balanced but since we have no clue on how the mana regen system will look, there's no point in worrying about it now.
quit fucking with teleport.
the pace of this game is too slow.
creatures, children, and women are all reasons why teleport is needed now that oranized is gone.
the speed of creatures cannot be increased (beyond a temporary +1 spell that costs way too much) so it takes them FOREVER to get around.
female champions cannot wear travelers cloaks or boots so they will be slower than male champions until magic items are researched and will always be 2 movepoints behind the men with full blitz gear.
children starting with 1 move point will always be 1 mp behind other champions with full blitz gear.
so yeah. dont fuck with teleport unless moves get fixed AND we get road building.
if you want to sit around hitting end turn over and over and over and over and over again without doing anything except moving your slow ass stacks across 10 squares, then you go right ahead and do that.
it is bad enough that the nerfed teleport in such a way that neither its detracters or defenders wanted. (still good for emergency defense, but no longer a convient way to speed up pace of game)
if you don't like teleport: DON'T USE IT!
This is an ideas forum.Ideas are not the same thing as a hardcoded game feature that is also safeguarded by measures to prevent disabling/changing it via mods.
If ideas are so obviously bad for your blood pressure, why read this?Can't you just go strangle a kitten or something?
i like cats.
btw - that was not directed at your original idea, it was directed at the next guy, black-knight and those like him. when the devs decided to listen to their complaints, this game became boring to a lot of people.
No worries. Black-and-knight thinking has never benefited any ideas thread. No point in getting worked up over it.The ideas here are way beyond just having Teleport or not having it.
I just don't think that an ability is unbalancingly strong.(okay, maybe Organised. There is practically no way to balance that without drastically changing the way it works)
But just about everything else - including Teleport - can be balanced with cost, availability, and execution.
With Teleport taking 2-4 turns until the troops would arrive at the destination, that would be 4 - 8 turns until you could turn around if you find out that the attack you were reacting to was only a feint.During all that time your troops would be in limbo and not available for anything.
Suddenly, the Teleporting Stack Of Doom (tm) strategy can become a weakness.
Magical means of travel - yes, please. But it should not be the instant gratification implementation it is now.
RH: good one, I like that. If you want the instant teleport, it becomes more expensive for large stacks!
I like the idea of increasing cost for larger groups and a time delay. Might I also suggest that if you control a shard (or some special tile) nearby the there is either a cost reduction or less turn delay. Or a buildable stucture that each faction can only have one of or costs a mana upkeep to do the same.
If shards aid teleport then the AI should make use of teleport to defend shards, which will be very important in 1.1 it seems.
Yah, I've been thinking of somehow mixing the Air shards in there.
Using them to turn the spell into more or less instanteous travel again doesn't sound like a good idea, though.
Hmm. Air shards. Other effects. <brain goes rumblerumblescreech>
What if... Teleport could hurt the transported units? Disorient / stun them for a few turns?Hyperspace sickness and jet lag?
Air shards could mitigate those effects.
I'm sure that can be refined since that's just off the top off my head.
Having units arrive at different times is out. That creates micromanagement and a massive headache for the AI.
The main reason for shards making teleport instant would be to have the AI use it to defend a vital resource, which shards will be in 1.1. Buildings that help would make the layout of your realm more important, but would need to be something that would not be spammed.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree. =P
With the cost factor of Teleport potentially becoming irrelevant (mid-late game), instant Teleport quickly becomes the Dominant Strategy.(there are plenty of lenghty treatises on that one)
With the instant bit only working when porting to shards, that doesn't change the system but only limits the dominance to those maps,where you get a convenient network of shards (or built city improvements) to port to.
Teleport as a long distance traveling aid is good but without built-in weaknesses it's just too damn good.
For now, the practical fix for those who think it is over powered ( I do ), just increase mana cost/level.
How about this:
- Shard at one side of the teleportation slightly reduces time.
- Shard at both ends results in instat or near instant (they arrive at the start of next turn).
And making use of this could be a new magic tech (or two).
Very nice ideas, I like the increasing cost in mana if you want to teleport more units.
Now I don't know if I like the idea of losing your army for 2-4 turns, I think mainly because it seems too long a wait. I have to agree though, this would certainly introduce an interesting element of strategy when deciding if you want to teleport over but the max you should wait should be 2 turns, if any wait. Obviously it's a bit early to even worry about the turns it would take to wait but hey I'm just saying what I think .
I also like the idea that when teleporting there could be a chance to miss the mark by some random amount. This reminds me of using those low level scroll of recall in WoW where you randomly teleported to anywhere in the world, it was quite funny. Of course I'd probably get pissed if I teleported and ended up next to a hungry Dragon lol.
Well, to be honest it's a bit of a trick to start with higher numbers.It's more provoking and a reaction can be far more interesting than no reaction at all. =P
Besides, a developer who starts with high restrictions and then later lowers the numbers to balance the spell is being nice to the players.Starting low and raising them later means the dev is an evil bastard who nerfs important spells simply because he's evil.
One other consideration would be to have distance matter for travel time/mana cost.
Of course, different forms of "teleportation" for different elemental books are possible too. Say...
Airwalk - travel to any square within, say, 5 squares of current location (Dimension Door anyone?)
Waterwalk - travel from one coastside location to any other coastside location within, say, 10 squares.
Earthwalk - travel between 2 of the same resource, yours or neutral, within 20 squares
Firewalk - Travel from hearth to hearth (city to city), regardless of distance
Of course those distance could start higher, or be made higher.
Also each can 'power' upgrade in a particular direction - getting more distance/people depending on shard control, on earthwalk you eventually can travel to any resource, under any control. (perhaps too hard to AI Code for strategy, but you get the idea)
And then each can also 'mana' upgrade, paying for these benefits instead
Some crazy stuff there and I'll mercilessly steal everything useful.I'm updateing the first post but am giving new ideas a bit of time to settle to hammer out the possibilities.
I'm always advocating more tangible differences between the elements (name of the game and all...) but never considered going that far for a single spell effect.But why not? Never limit ideas to what you think is doable or reasonable...
I had some ideas for Air spells in general, dealing with the wind and ships. (as little point as there is in having ships...)
Like in Pirates 1, there would be a windrose on the map and actually display strength and direction of the wind. Some ships, depending on their sail configuration,might be unable to sail against the wind at all or might be better or worse at sailing before the wind. (So WOM could have a ship designer. Oh sweet irony)Air or Water spells would... alter the deal.
A windwalking spell would also be affected by well... the wind itself. You might be able to see windwalking enemy units and depending on how much ahh...collateral damage you are willing to cause, might create a hurricane to blow them out of the sky - quite literally.
So when using air troops you better make sure you have air superiority, too. =P
MoM had a rather basic version of that with Wind Mastery. It was just a very generic buff / debuff to all fliers and ships.
Earthwalk might only work in places like quarries, clay pits, or the likes. Mines.
For Firewalk you might have to create the fire first. A forest fire, a strategic fire spell that keeps on burning for a few turns...And if you start it in your own territoy to have an entry point, a forest or other fire might not stop burning when you want it to.That's how I'd like to see fire magic. Easy to summon, hard to control and put back into the bottle. In every way.
Brad's Avatar reference goes exactly that way. Playing with fire should be... playing with fire.
All interesting ideas.
I'd tend to place balance ahead of style - but yes, having earthwalk just for "earthy" resources was the plan.
Well, not that crazy if we REALLY want magic split along elemental lines - enough with the half-attempts!
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