I feel the need to elaborate, as the more I think about it, the more I realize that's possibly the biggest issue I have with the game at this point. It's where the sense of detachment comes from. I can't relate with the game with this technology tree. Bugs can be fixed, spells can be added, a map "randomizator" should be in works... sometime. But how to address this very basic, structural flaw with the game?
Maybe I was spoiled by the great games of the past, like Alpha Centauri. But then again: why stray from a winning formula?
In Elemental we have different, completely disjointed paths. I can become a master diplomat without even getting a big city. Conversely, I cannot even "talk" or "barter" unless I unlock specific technologies. Then I can "barter better" by unlocking the next technologies in the same tree. How exciting. Then I need specific technologies to make heroes appear (!), to make castles and dragons appear (!) and so on.
It's wrong. Sorry, but it is. The feel should be organic, flavour-oriented and meaningful. Lairs should not appear, they should be just there. Maybe the odd one can be dug up, but that's it. Technologies should be interconnected, like in other 4x games. I mean in Alpha Centauri you needed to research general physics and chemicals before you could apply your knowledge to weapons for instance... or to better transport systems and so on. In Elemental we have a lifeless technology system which only speaks of "game mechanics", and some of them don't even make sense.
Do you guys agree? Do you think the issue can be addressed somewhat? Even if only by an expansion... I still have hope.
@ Paradoxical: thanx for my first karma point I appreciate it.
Well to speak frankly I did try to justify the system with a similar reasoning. I did state in my original post that I can accept the odd lair being "dug up", or re-found or something.
But... it takes a damn lot of "imaginative effort" to explain everything this way. I can't accept to be able to SAFELY journey through the land in the first part of the game, when I know that those same lands are populated by hordes of ravaging monsters, including dragons.
Monsters that my scholars conveniently "make appear" at level 3, then at level 4, then 5, then 6 and so on!
This is 4th wall breaking, if you're into movies-theater metaphors.
And how do you explain champions, by the way? Do scholars find documents that describe how to find level 5 heroes roaming aimlessly, then a document explaining how to find level 6 hero and so on? Come on, let's be real. It's a just a poor design choice.
And even if I could accept such a background (I cannot... it really feels wrong to me), the tech tree could still use some interdependencies. That's how research works, really. No progress can be made, in ANY field, without the help of discoveries in OTHER fields. This makes the tree completely lifeless and mechanical, to me.
Oh. Maybe I did purchase the wrong game, after all. Many games of the past got this aspect perfectly: I am surprised there's need to argue about it at all...
Alpha Cenaturi had a blind research option which was similiar to this..... only difference was you could choose which method you prefered and there was no likely/unlikely element. Also certain techs caused more life forms to spawn... but it was more logically justified..... instead of a bunch adventurers unlocked a tomb and monsters spew forth (which seems kind of silly to me, but at least they try).
Civ 4 used the same concept. Resources "mysteriously" appearing after a certain research. It was enjoyable I think, and makes sense. Since oil existed for millions of years, but the spear wield cave man did not have the knowledge to understand its usefullness and how to exploit it. So it "did not exist" to them. Same concept in this game I think. The only part I agree with is that the technology tree seems to be to big of a factor in things like monster spawns. Sure the world changes and monsters get tougher.... that makes sense.... but how can you justify linking that to the tech tree? An oger is going to eat you regardless of your tech level if he is hungry....d
None of these ideas are bad or new... its just how the game "handles" them that seems to be the problem.
Wierd, I personally LOVE the tech tree in Elemental
I think it's really, really weird that armor is linked to weapons. Two weapon lines, in particular.
I don't think that's weird. Armor and weapons progress together imo. Make big sword, make armor to not get hurt by big sword, make bigger sword to hurt armor, etc
I mean it makes a bit more sense in an escalation between two groups, but it still makes sense to me if one group were to find an new tech then find something to defend it in case enemy got it,
Personnaly i find the tech trees a good thing.
The diplomatic tree bores me a bit,just put some research in it to be allowed to use monsters lairs for the fun of it thats all,and of course the first point for caravans.
My point (but hardly usable in MP because too much random), is i'd like to get more techs randomized.Like the techs unlikely to be found.
I just would be happy and change my game if i (by chance) i would unlock a very rare tech for example (not one written,one unexpected).Would be appealing.Those techs wouldn't need to be uber, just that it would change from the routine and make me happy just by the chance to discover one.
Civ and warfare are kinda basic,well so be it...
Adventuring is kinda strange one.By one side i like it, discovering dungeons and quests sounds good (even if not very devellopped atm,that i can understand,not a priority atm since lots of stuff to fix,even if i'd like too ), but having dungeons poping in my ZOC because an opponent researches the tech before me kinda pisses me off.He finds HIS dungeons in his ZOC ok,his searchers found dungeons etc... but why in my zone ??
I don't understand this.Writting this makes me doubt if thats really the case but i think it is.
Well anyways discoveries should affect only your civilisation.That's my point.
Rather than 5 separate trees, I would have rather seen each faction get it's own single tree.
Are you taking the time to read the tech descriptions? Now, I will grant you the devs didn't quite get it right but IF you read the tech descripitions the general idea they were trying to convey is in there.
We are too spoiled in this day and age of instant communication and high tech toys, where knowlegde actually comes to us and we dont have to go to it. There is no CNN no America's Most Wanted streaming into your castle via sattelite. All the cities are CUT OFF from each other by a deadly, unforgiving wasteland that regular folks DO NOT travel through. So tell me, exactly, HOW are you going to find out about these 'champions'? I guess your buddy is calling you on his cell phone and sending you live video of a 'champion' kicking some baddies arse?
Well, you see, since you dont have all this nice communications ability you build this study where you train people to obtain this knowledge for you ... these few folks use whatever means at there disposal to get information. These select few people DO have to go out into the wasteland, and travel between the towns and report back what they find out about. Maybe lots of them die in the effort maybe most of them do, but in the end they find stuff out .. whos who and what's what and relay that back to you. The way the study functions is abstracted from its details and the tech descriptions hold the clues to how this info is obtained...unfortunately the devs really needed somebody better at making descriptions for the techs... if you read the descriptions you get the impression that you could walk by MR Champion and never know who he was. After your ABSTRACTED network of knowledge seekers finds out that MR Champion exists they keep track of him and his where abouts when he comes into your territory, and you and your troops know who he is and you can find him out in the wastelands when you come across him.
As to the monsters appearing I somewhat agree, BUT most of the time new monsters dont just 'appear.' A lot of the time someone will report to you that dungeon raiders looking for artifacts accidentally let loose a horde of beasties into the wasteland...
It's all in the theme of the game... if you lose track of the theme of the game nothing makes sense.
Precisely. In Civ4, resources didn't just mysteriously appear at all. They were there the whole time, you just couldn't see them. Whereas in Elemental, resources literally just appear out of thin air. You only get one extra resource, and it always spawns right next to your city. How does that make even the slightest sense. Surely if I've discovered a new way of tapping an existing resource then I would put this into practise all over the map, not just in one of my dozens of cities. Or if I've learned to make pacts with spiders, surely there is more than one spider web in the entire world? It's a massive failure of suspension of disbelief.
Don't forget, the early marketing made a big deal of how you'd have to go out and make pacts with the various creatures you could recruit, and there'd be no guarantee that you'd get the same ones each time, so each game would be different. Well, no, actually it looks like every game is exactly the same, and you can make these pacts without ever leaving the safety of your city, because the spiders come to you.
As for the techtree, it's flat and uninspiring. I mean, don't get me wrong, in its current state it works just fine. It's not a bad system, per se. But it could be so much more, and the system the OP describes would accomplish exactly that.
As for you folks who are trying to rationalise an identifiable problem in game mechanics with the explanation of "well you don't understand the fluff properly", you really need to stop. Bad mechanics can never be fixed by any amount of fluff. It's a simple fact of game design, and railing against the facts (even as verbosely and eloquently as you have) isn't going to accomplish anything.
totally agree
I really like the tech trees. Especially that it is somewhat randomized.
I dont find this mechanic bad. And I dont see a problem here.
Inventing some tech to make gold deposit appear at enemie's city instead? No, thanks, he can do that on his own.
Unlike Civ, you build around resources here, so with totally random placement (or uncover of randomly placed at game start) there is high chance of you not being able to get any benefits from said research at all.
Keep in mind I don't have the game yet, I'm one of those sitting on the fence.
- I think a lot of technologies are just +5% or +20% increases of something. They rarely offer something genuinely new, especially a new option. Is this correct ?
- I have no problems accepting that lairs are accessible only after certain tech is researched. It's about ancient lore, right ? It requires studies ? Lairs might require knowing a secret entrance or a ritual of passage. What I would like to have is an ability to see lairs even if they can't be entered yet. Inaccessible ones could be displayed as sketches, especially on cloth map. The rest has been looted already. Reasons: so I can plan a bit better, also in multiplayer games. In MP i might want to occupy an area even if I can't benefit from it. To deny others an advantage. (Dog in the manger).
Nope techs permit you to build new buildings , to use new weapons etc...
Some of the bad mechanics in this game lie more in the STRUCTURE of the research tree rather than the functionality. People are arguing against a misnomer ... TECHS or technology. Researching Technology implies new invention and mechanical discoveries. The Devs really messed up here because part of the research tree IS about inventing or rediscovering technology, BUT some of the 'techs' have nothing to do with technology and more to do with Lore and Information.
When you research the adventuring branch in particular you are not INVENTING gold mines, nor are you inventing champions or monsters(frankenstein might disagree about the monsters), instead you are aquiring information about locations. When you have these locations the 'stuff' appears on the map. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this mechanic. It's all in the CONTEXT or the THEME of the game ... that mechanic is designed around the idea or FLUFF of the world if you will. It's actually an excellent mechanic, brilliant even because it supports the background story of the game quite well.
Is it perfect? No, but it's a great idea and I commend the devs for coming up with it. It would be nice if there were MORE variety in the minor goodies as well as UNIQUE dungeons and structures that only appeared in one location rather than 3 or 5. Maybe there are unique things I just havent discovered them yet.
Seems like some people just can't get over a gold mine popping up next to their city that wasnt there before ... calling it a bad mechanic while at the same time ignoring the IMPLIED scale of the maps and the back story that fully explains why you didnt know it was there in the first place. It's definitely not the traditional method of resource discovery and I can see why people have a problem with that. The game contains everything you need to figure all this out, if you take the time to look.
If I were the devs however, I think I'd break the Lore aspects of the research tree out into their own seperate branch and maybe work on the descriptions of the individual lore discoveries to help clarify what they actually do for your Soverign.
I'd give my Q key for custom tech trees (when do I ever use a Q anyway?), but I have to say OP I really don't agree at all. Why should tech progression be linear? Of course you can be a good diplomat with a small city, being a good diplomat has nothing to do with having a huge kingdom! There's still a power rating which effects diplomacy, and the current tech tree makes you think on what you want to expand and where.
I also disagree with other players about the empire tech tree, I mean they get some awesome buildings out of every single tech tree and they have some interesting unit options.
Despite the fact their appearance is explained as being let loose due to your scholars meddling in things man was not meant to know?
I assume they go out and pick up rumours of who the most successful dungeon wanderers happen to be and how they may be contacted. Which is the kind of thing you'd be doing if say you were a talent scout for a sports team in the days before sport was broadcast on TV or radio.
And this is a problem because? Researching how to identify things and better do stuff is still research. Most research in the real world doesn't end in some amazing invention, research generally ends in more information.
^ This, I'd assumed they'd be refining their techniques, creating information networks, sending out scouts, learning what to look for, ect.
For You!
+10% techs are very late-game ones. Basically, they are where tech tree ends, so you can research something when you are out of techs to research.
Notable locations/quests level is global. So even if you did not research them yourself, you will see them once _someone_ does the research. You just could not use them.
This is a strategy game, not a simulation. If you want realism and things that make sense, then walk outside your front door, although it is debatable that you'll find it there.
If you can't bridge the gap using your imagination, then I apologize for the short-sightedness. Heroes (for recruiting) do not have to "magically appear out of thin air." They are wandering the lands. Your researchers can make new contacts. These heroes could make themselves known when they learn that your scholars are advancing their researches. There are infinite possibilities. "Popping out of thin air" breaking realism is a frail argument to use in a fantasy turn based strategy game. It is akin to arguing that your sovereign would not have to click "End Turn" if it were real life and not a game. Things are happening all the time during and in between turns. Time does not stop, even if it does in the game world. These things appearing "out of nowhere" is a representation of that.
The same would hold true for monsters, quest sites, treasures, etc.
To continue to return back to the same point without considering the possibilites that have been posted, or using your own imagination to fill in the gaps, is coming very close to trolling. This is not a design flaw. It is a perception flaw. Namely, your perception. It barely constitutes as an opinion, as if you are making things up to try to invalidate the game.
"Technology tree" is a commonly used game turn. You are attaching the significance of it relating specifically to "technology." Your argument is semantical at best. Obviously, the devs and much of the players do not have an issue with calling it a "technology tree," even though it contains items besides literal "technologies."
FYI, there are MANY other strategy games out there that have technology trees that contain things other than technology. Even one of the founding fathers, Civilization, had espionage and spying (as well as various diplomatic advancements), which are not technologies, per se.
Seriously, it's not like your sovereign actually has a PDA on his person and actually uses a GUI to access a link titled "Tech Tree." He doesn't have a computer, either, to manage the game in every nuance. Maybe the word "tree" should be eliminated as well, since it is not actually a tree at all. I certainly do not see roots, branches, bark, or leaves.
If it is such an issue for you, start calling it a "Research Tree." No one has to know, and your immersion does not have to be broken.
Rename "adventuring" to something like "world knowledge". Then, you can explain that some people at your cities research ancient books and legends talking about those new papers (like if we wanted to search for Atlantis for example). Then... when researchers manage to put together all the information, the location to those ancient places is revealed "appearing" in the map. Or to soy more properly, your kingdom puts those places in the map because it has just relearned about its existence.
I admit the tree isn't quite a fun as the one from some other games, but it is pretty good. You can go for buildings, you can go for quests and adventure, you can go for equipment/troop upgrades, or for magic equipment, or for upgrades to your diplomatic status. There's lots of choice there to agonize over. Within each of those subsets there are even more choices so it's not like you don't have consequences to your choices, which is what makes a good tech tree in my opinion.
Need a branch for breeding to allow your wife to have more children, to chose the sexe, to educate them, to stay quietly in her city etc ...
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