Hey Guys,
I'm new to this game, just have a few plays in and need some help on some basic strategy to help me get going. I've poked around on this forum and a couple of sites and can't find what I'm really looking for, if you could point me in the right direction or give me some tips I'd really appreciate it.
I've read several of the threads here, but still haven't found out a lot of what I'm looking for. Sorry if this is someplace obvious, but I didn't see anything like this pinned up top or in the past couple of pages.
For example, what's a good build order to start off the game with? I usually build up all my mines, get a cap ship then take over neighboring planets ASAP. How should I prioritize in my research and planet upgrades with that? I usually try to max out all of these, but obviously there's an ideal order to do them in.
Another thing that I've been getting my butt kicked by is the pirates...early game is it better to sic them on someone else with bounty or fight it out? I've just been fighting with them so far and while I usually beat them no problem, unfortunately the time it's taking me to fend them off lets the other computer players colonize half the galaxy while I'm dealing with pirates.
What's an ideal fleet makeup, I've been finding that my frigates don't have very long lifespans. I center my fleet around a vasari carrier with a mix of mostly bombers and a couple fighters then build anti-frigate and anti-fighter frigates. How big should my fleet be though, I usually get my cap ship then five of each of those and that doesn't seem to be enough. Should I just spam frigates endlessly until I hit my fleet-size cap? When should I start adding my second (or more) capital ships?
How do you defend your planets? The one time I went with a starbase that seemed pretty pimp, but I doubt that's practical for every planet...obviously controlling choke points is key, but I still end up with multiple back/side doors into my empire, should I put up tactical defense structures there, have a second roving fleet or what? And how do you best defend an individual planet, with the beam/missile structures, a hangar, or what? It seems that any place I put the initial defense structures it's just too easy to just go around them.
Obviously to get diplomacy going you're going to need to send out those diplomacy ships. What's the ideal way to do this, one per planet for the guy you're trying to make friends with, several per planet, group them all around his capital or what?
Once I do get a fleet to send out and colonize some nearby planets it seems like I hit a point where I've got to cross several uncolonizable asteroid belts/nebulas or whatever, at that point I start feeling overextended. What do you do with these uncolonizable spots, just claim the mines and push on, or put a starbase there or something.
Is it a good idea having multiple capital ships in the same fleet (not sure how experience gets split up) or should I start a new fleet for each capital ship? What should a late game 'ultimate fleet' look like, multiple capital ships obviously, plus whatever high end cruiser the race has?
That's all I can think of for now, thanks for the help and sorry if this has all been answered already.
i have found that neutral miens give a large boost to resource rates
since magnetic clouds prevent strikecraft from being used, and bombers are one of the greatest weaknesses of starbases, i would put a starbase in a magnetic cloud if its strategically important
I second that about plasma storms and SBs (sadly you can't build an SB in a magnetic cloud at all). But a Transcencia or a fully load Orky in a plasma storm is rough to deal with. Forces the enemy to go around.
i thought magnetic clouds disable strike craft and plasma storms disable abilities
No, magnetic clouds disable abilities and plasma storms disable strike craft. A starbase in plasma storms are downright annoying to deal with. A properly equipped and supported Transcencia in a plasma storm should be impervious to attack from anything except a swarm of Ogrovs with Targeting Uplink or an Orkulus. Fortunately, as tough as an Orkulus is, you should be able to push it down through sheer brute force if you hit hard enough.
Last time I encountered an Orky at a plasma storm, I played it cool so the enemy thought I was building up, then suddenly showed up with 20 Destras, a few guardians, and a Progen. Tanked my way through the starbase and brought it down. If you hit hard and fast enough, Orkies die to frigate power.
Anyways, on to the topics raised by the original poster:
If you're playing without quick-start, you should always build your capital ship and your extractors right away. If you anticipate a longer game with the enemy starting further away, upgrade your homeworld's population. If you're starting with quick-start on (requires the Entrenchment expansion pack) all these things are already purchased for you.
Definitely expanding your empire is your top priority, as is scouting. Depending on how far away the nearest enemy is, you'll either way to get two civic labs (for ice/volcanic planets) or two military labs (for military units).
Stay lean on techs. Focus on high priority and low-cost technologies. Expensive technologies are only worthwhile for very large empires, and even then you don't want to get them all. Focus more on growing your empire, your fleet, and adding more infrastructure (like trade ports).
In the original game and Entrenchment, it's definitely worth it to fight the pirates. You can easily fend them off with a single capital ship, a few turrets, and a repair platform. In Diplomacy, pirates are much deadlier and bidding makes more sense. Honestly, I'd recommend turning the feature off while you learn the game.
There are lots of different approaches. As Vasari, the Assailant is your best damage-dealer, while the Sentinel is your best damage absorber. Nothing wrong with carriers laden with fighters and bombers, either. As for durability, the best way to keep your fleet alive is to pack firepower and lots of it (this is especially true for Vasari). Pound the enemy into a pulp before they can do the same to you. You can use Overseers for healing if you like, but those are best reserved for capital ships.
As for capital ship to fleet ratio, generally your fleet size research should be one step ahead of your capital ship crew research. That's a generalization; I frequently run capital ship heavy and capital ship light depending on my situation. Capital ships give you less firepower for money spent, but more useful special abilities, while frigates give you muscle. It takes some experience to balance the two.
Your best defense is the scout; know where and when the enemy will attack before he gets there, and then have your fleet in place to defend. The best way to support a defending fleet is repair platforms. These are very inexpensive, but can greatly extend the longevity if your units (particularly capital ships) in a fight.
Starbases are great for choke points and other critical "junction" planets, but they won't be able to defend your entire empire. The best defense is always a mobile fleet, and starbases support the fleet.
Now, the AI can be easily lured to attack starbases that are simply too strong for it, and in this way you can definitely win against overwhelming forces with a single well-placed starbase, but a human player will avoid and maneuver around a starbase to make it less effective. It's very difficult to use starbases effectively in multiplayer and you definitely need to rely more on your fleet.
The turret and hangar are woefully overpriced. Not useless, but definitely something to avoid. Use scouts to watch for larger attack forces, and use small groups of mobile defenders to fend off weaker forces. Unsupported siege frigates are so fragile you can actually take them out with your scouts. 2-3 scouts per siege frigate is sufficient.
No more than one per planet. It doesn't really matter which planet you send them too, unless you're trying to use one of their special abilities to help out the guy. In that case, read the special ability and target planets that would benefit more from it.
Experience is shared evenly. If you have three capital ships in the gravity well, each gets 1/3rd experience. Sometimes you want to split them up, sometimes you want to keep them as a single fighting force. It really depends on what you're doing and what comboes your pulling off.
The bomber is the most dangerous combat unit in the late game, but each faction has a capital ship (Kol, Halcyon, and Kortul) that can shut them down, so you need to back them up with firepower. Support cruisers and capital ship special abilities are absolutely huge, and the Advent and Vasari factions both have great superweapons for combat (the TEC's is great for shutting down the enemy economy, but once the opponent compensates for it, it's lackluster).
A TEC player this late in the game is in trouble. The TEC fleet is strongest early-game, and just gets weaker in comparison to the other factions later on. You need to be carrying an advantage from the early game, usually in the form of a bigger fleet or higher-level capital ships. TEC basically is stuck using bombers, javelis LRM, or kodiak heavy cruisers for its damage output, but the problem is the other factions have lots of ways to shut down all of these unit types, so you need to compensate with overwhelming numbers or devious special abilities to counter the enemy. Basically, it's about quantity for TEC, and if you don't have it, you're in big trouble.
Advent will want to build their fleet around the Iconus Guardian. Its two abilities are absolutely critical to keeping your forces intact. Its first ability is called shield projection, which allows the guardian to absorb some of the damage dealt to nearby friendly units. You combine this with the shield regeneration ability of the Progenitor Mothership. The result is massive shield regeneration abilities. This can make the Advent fleet nearly impervious to damage while the combo is active, and if the enemy can't hit with overwhelming power or shut down these abilities, they won't even scratch you. The other ability of the Iconus Guardian is repulsion, an ability that pushes away enemy units. This can be used to keep enemies where you want them and protect your valuable capital ships.
Vasari is the most dangerous faction if they can max out their fleet. And really, it's no one thing, it's everything about this faction that comes together into a beautiful synthesis. The brutal phase missile weapon, the devious stikulus subverter that can leave enemy frigates completely helpless, the Kortul Devastator that can simply disable enemy strike craft weapons, a Skirantra/Overseer combo offering massive healing, putting up minefields and starbases in enemy territory... and let's not forget the antics you can pull with phase stabilizers and kosturas. This is just a faction that has everything going for it late-game. If you get this far as Vasari, you have so many awesome options available.
You know Darvin3, you mention scouting alot. Maybe you should get a detailed post together all about scouting/ a sins wiki entry so you can just link to it... I know I could use scouting tips myself. The hardest part for me is the multi-tasking.
Agreed, and unfortunately there's no real solution to this. At a certain level, you have to be watchful. If you don't see it happen, doesn't matter how many scouts you have there...
That was all great info Darvin, thanks a lot. In my current game I've got 2 opponents in my star system and two others in other star systems (not sure if it's one each yet, or if they're fighting over one of them. I'm mowing down the one opponent in my star system pretty well, and fortunately the other guy has mostly left me alone. I let him take one asteroid and he stopped after that.
I've managed to get trade alliances and such with the two not in my star system, but they started off the contact. My question right now is, what is the best way to kick off diplomacy with other factions? Wait 'til they offer you something, or is there some way to kick things off...it seems like once the ball starts rolling it gets easy to build up diplomacy, but until you get that nonagression pact you can't send ambassadors, so how do you get all that started usually?
Also is there kind of an ideal fleet size, or should I just keep spamming frigates and cruisers until I hit my logistics cap every time?
Also a beginner control/interface question. Right now I will build a bunch of frigates at my production planet add them to the fleet, give the fleet an order to attack something or jump somewhere...and sometimes the fleet I'll go back and see the frigates I just produced doing nothing. The ones out attacking at the moment will follow the command, but the recently built ones don't seem to act like part of the fleet until they get to the action. Am I messing up something in adding them to the fleet or do you have to command them individually until they get to the action?
Oh, the one other question, how often do you move up your production center? Obviously you've got one or two planets with a cap/frigate building...how far back from the action do you usually let that place sit before you scuttle the frigate producer and move it closer?
What excellent, succinct advice. I'm new, not nearly as experienced in RTSs like this as the OP seems to be, and have no overview of what which race can do, so a lot of your late-game advice I was unable to fully understand, but this is all good stuff. I tried to ask some questions here, but I'm afraid I'm not quite up to this level yet. Thanks to both of you.
This is all great information to give me a great start.
Something I read somewhere that I'd like to have confirmed...building multiple trade ports on the same planet IS a good idea? Each of them will add a significant amount of credits? In this case should you designate a few systems as "trade systems"? And just build the mines and the trade ports?
Reading the wiki, I assume it is worthwhile to build orbital refineries...I thought in the game it said that it took up 4 logistics slots...that seems like a HUGE cost, compared to having an extra two of each research center. Do you usually build them?
Yup; if you build two trade ports, you get twice as many credits. Build three and you get three times as much. Trade ports stack, and are pretty much the only way to build super-massive incomes.
Now, just because you can build them on the same planet doesn't mean you should. Given the choice, always expand your trade network, since a longer trade route makes all trade ports more profitable. As well, spreading out on multiple planets will save you having to buy logistics planetary upgrades in the early game. Later on, though, don't hesitate to build multiple trade ports on the same planet.
Unless they have a planetary bonus that gives increased trade income, this is unnecessary. There's nothing wrong with it, but don't go out of your way to do it.
That's a bit misleading. All logistics structures take up 4 slots, which means a refinery takes up the same amount as a trade port.
Refineries have several big issues. The first is that they only stack up to three times. This means that building multiple refineries in close proximity can reduce their effectiveness. Because they have a one-jump area of effect, refineries can have stacking issues even if they're spaced two jumps apart! The second issue is that you have to place refineries very carefully to be effective; they must service at least 8 extractors to even be worth considering, and you'll probably want to reserve them for spaces with 12 or more extractors. These spots are common enough that you should have at least one, but you're unlikely to have more than one.
The killer for refineries, in my eyes, is that they cost a lot more than trade ports. Combined with all their other limitations, this makes them a very niche selection. If I desperately need to increase resource income or I have a great spot for refineries, I'll build them in a heartbeat, but definitely not a top-pick item.
A couple more questions.
How do you get a planet to culture flip? There have been times where I've surrounded an asteroid on all sides and had my culture go all the way through the jump to their planet on every side and still had it not flip. Is there a trick I'm missing or is it nearly impossible to flip a planet?
Also it seems right now my biggest hurdle is how to manage my empire well, particularly my ships. How do you all get your fleets organized? I have been using hotkeys to manage my fleets, but it seems difficult to manage still and a lot of the time I feel like I spend as much time tracking down lost ships as managing the battle. Is there any tips you can give me in this aspect? How do you organize your ships? How do you navigate around your empire? What's the best way to use the planet menu on the left side of the screen?
Its nearly impossible TBH. I rarely am able to do it and if you stay on top of your own culture it rarely happens to you.
Keep the Empire tree as simple as possible. I like to shut it off completely (use the options menu to control this) and only put on what I want, such as frontline planets and/or factory planets and the one or two fleets I use. As for fleet I usually just do the mob mentality and focus on microing only the caps. The AI is fairly decent on the other smaller abilities, though sometimes you may need to pause the game and give orders but I rarely need to do that.
Planets under the effect of enemy culture will slowly lose loyalty. If loyalty hits zero, the planet turns neutral, and the culture should also prevent the enemy from recolonizing.
The problem is that their own culture centers fight back against your culture, while friendly capital ships reduce the effect of your culture. If they have both standing on guard, it can be basically impossible to make the planet "turn".
Hello Darvin3, and all you dedicated members here. Thank you for the massive useful help you provide for rookies to the game. I have been playing Sins and reading this forum for half a year now and thanks to you guys and all the valuable info you provide, this game has grown on me and become a fun hobby.
A few days ago I discovered this very interesting tactic:
but this time couldn't find any additional info how to do it.
So I just tried it this way: I built a Vasari starbase on an asteroid at the edge of my empire, upgraded it 3 times with weapons and 2 times with armor. Then I moved all my fleet away from that particular asteroid and waited for the enemy to attack. Nothing happened.
Maybe I didn't use the right bait. How do you do it properly?
Greetings from Heidelberg
Arne
Often times they'll do it themselves without needing any convincing. They'll just show up and attack a starbase that's clearly too powerful for them. I think the big problem is that the AI isn't accounting for the effect of repair platforms, which can effectively double a starbase's longevity and probably throws its threat assessment right out the window.
If they aren't attacking, the best way to lure them in is to jump your fleet out of the gravity well. This will remove your fleet from the threat assessment of that gravity well... even though you can just turn around and jump back in a moment's notice.
Generally speaking, once they're in the gravity well fighting, they will not retreat and will usually charge head-first at the starbase.
The AI seems to have a "tunnel vision" for specific planets. They know where they want to attack next, and generally ignore or neglect all other targets. You probably put that starbase on a planet the AI was intent on ignoring. You have to look at where the AI has deployed its fleet and try to figure out where you can get the fleet to "aggro".
Usually my vs-AI strategy is to quickly get a colony right in its face as a forward staging post, which of course tends to draw all its attacks and makes it a prime location for a starbase death trap. To give you an idea of how quick I'm talking about, I'm talking about 10-15 minutes into the game.
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