So we're a week into it now, and a lot of this is likely to change, but I wanted to drop in a few ideas. Note: I am not going to cover technical glitches or bugs. I am under the assumption that most of the bugs are known and efforts to thwart them are underway. These are entirely gameplay and possibly balance-related suggestions.
That said:
1. Everything in this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/394155 I would add a couple more suggestions to the ones he has, such as:
Just to name a few.
2. As I, and others, have suggested in this thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/394229 redefine the methods of Janusk-addition. Make the advisor a chargen choice (you could even associate a cost to it, so players could opt to not have an advisor if they so choose), and for those who opt to have one, increase his reputation considerably so that female sovereigns can't get married eons before male.
3. Resource distribution seems off. There's far more materials than one will ever need, since the game puts heavy leaning on the necessity of gold. There needs to be more of a favoring for other resources to make it worthwhile for you to plant a city next to that Old Grove and get those extra materials. My suggestions to repair this imbalance is to increase the materials costs for all weapons and armor by 1.5-3x depending on the strength of the equipment, increase the metals cost for weapons and armors similarly for all weapons/armor based on the strength of the equipment, and reduce the gold costs by upwards of half for all equipment. Right now the only resources that matter much are food and gold. After a few hundred turns, you find yourself drowning in everything else, and lacking heavily in those two. I actually like Food where it is. Wars should be fought over food, imo. Food in a post-apocalyptic world is always the primary motivator, and it should remain that way. The other materials are not.
This is further compounded by the fact that the AI ends up in the same situation. The entire Trade window has absolutely no value whatsoever past turn ~100 or so, because the AI and you have so many materials that they have absolutely no value, and neither side has any gold worth mentioning. Dramatically increasing materials, metals, and so on cost while simultaneously reducing gold costs to put all materials in line based on the amount of them you can get should be a heavy goal. Gold per turn should be a deciding factor on how large of a force you can sustain, not how much you can recruit, especially since these people are fighting for survival in a harsh, post-apocalyptic world. You shouldn't have to bribe them to fight, and you shouldn't be buying your equipment. Even without forging being in game, it can be simulated by shifting the costs away from gold and into materials.
I honestly think that of all things I am about to suggest, this one option is of the utmost importance.
4. There need to be a better distribution of Neutral non-strategic resources. Of this I don't mean metals, I mean monsters. Yes, there's the ones in diplomacy, and those are well and good, but what about ones to fight over instead of just to get by tech? This is a good way to introduce Fantasy Monsters. I realize you want it to be men-focused, and it still would be. But having those independent towns hold different fantasy monsters makes them more valuable in numerous respects. Some good ideas to go with in addition to the Ogres:
This is just a few ideas to start it off, the possibilities are endless.
5. On the note of Independent Factions, let's make them a little more useful, shall we? Right now they exist just to be conquered. They should have faction-specific items available, and those shouldn't be dependent on just the faction (although they should still have as such), they should also depend on which of the above nodes they have for recruiting. Examples would be the Faerie Grove would offer magical rings (different from the ones you can get from tech) that boost movement and dodge, or the Bandit Camp would have rings/amulets that increase your gold output, so on and so forth. The imperative thing is that these are unique, including the faction-specific ones. Right now there's no unique flavor involved in these things, why buy from these entities when you can tech up the magic line and buy them from your own places?
Next to do for them, make it capable to recruit mercs from them. With #3 in place, this would be where Gold-heavy troops would come from. You could go in, go to a shop-like interface, and recruit squads of troops from them based on what they have in their area. These would be limited to your tech's capabilities of squad size, and would convert their entire costs into gold costs (plus a little extra, gotta think about profit here!) and give you a squad of those troops immediately, no 14t wait. This incentivizes keeping them alive, while still getting troops from their factional holdings.
This will also give a greater value to them diplomatically. It would be nice to get a call from Polapel offering me a squad or two of Faeries if I help protect them from the growing threat of Kraxis on their border after they get wardec'd, pushing me into a war with the Krax in order to support Polapel's autonomy.
This is a good, fairly easy (in comparison to some other ways) way to increase dynamism within games.
6. Random Events. These are needed. World-cracking, terrain deforming, and devastating random events that make the turns more than just waiting for your troops to finish so you can send off a third army to the front, down to as mundane as "The people of Alphabetsoup have been working hard to heal the land and a new fertile land has been created!!" and you get a new fertile tile, completely outside of the tech tree. Let's face it: City Builder strategy games are samey. Replayability is not great in and of itself once you figure out the strategy the AI uses. Random Events are a staple, not because they are "cool," although often they are, but because they give some rather jarring aspects to the game that players need to react to beyond just building troops/researching techs in the proper order. They don't even need to be overly crazy. Something as simple as a random-trigger Quest (in fact, these should happen a lot) that does not require a location would be a good start.
7. Notables and Quests. Right now how these work is lackluster. I've spoken with GreenReaper about the depth of them, and he wasn't able to answer as he didn't have the source-code available. I'm not against them being primarily "Fetch" and "Kill" missions. That's fine, really, since in any given RPG that's what every quest comes down to, in a nutshell. It's presentation that matters. I know you guys are going to be working more on that, but here's a couple suggestions about other related things with this:
As I come up with more I will update this thread, other suggestions are very welcome from users, and I will edit this post with the updates (in a different color so it can be differentiated) with ideas that I think are really good.
8. Caravans. Right now your caravans are an annoyance for anything that involves trading with the AI, as they must pass the "wild edge" in order to get to them, and regularly get attacked. Having Caravans be in danger is fine, however if this is the case there needs to be some way for us to protect them without having to micromanage a few armies to do so or rebuild the caravans every time they cross the gap. Here's my solution: Let us group units with them. If we could build a couple of squads, move them to the Caravan that was already doing a route, and they would join the Caravan's group and allow us to forget about it (and thusly protect it in combat), it would be a far greater irritation to the end user, and thusly more fun. I think this is the best solution of all the ones I've seen. A few people have suggested that you make caravans unattackable, I think that's a poor idea as it makes them an indestructible income source.
9. Purchasing of items for the Sovereign and Champions are ridiculously overpriced. I would again suggest simulating the Forging aspect by converting their costs out of Gold (when buying from your own country of course) and into their material/metal/crystal components, I think this would go a long way to being more fun and less irritating. (ty Kilsonx)
10. Random loot. Getting gold from killing things is well and good, and the main way I fund my growing empire as well. However it would be nice if we got random drops now again. Things like Health Pots and Scrolls (1-off spells), wands, things that I realize aren't in the game but really should be. Rings. Midnight Stones. Heck, a pair of pants. (ty again, Kilsonx!)
11. Variety in items. There's a fellow working on a mod (I wish I could remember who because I want to give him a shameless plug here, and so I did: https://forums.elementalgame.com/394174 one plug for Kenata for his mod) that I've talked to on IRC that is adding status effects and various things to different weapons to make some variety. Yes, there's the choice of Swords v Hammers for "Fast" versus "Brute", but that's not really good enough. I'm not one that sees the need for the piercing/slashing/blunt differential. I don't really care about that. You can create variation without having damage be non-static for various enemies. In fact I've often found that to be incredibly annoying. Why is a slashing weapon weaker against a skeleton in D&D? It will cut through bone, and when it cuts through bone the skeleton falls apart. That's arbitrary and really an annoyance. The ability to imbue items with spell effects (I have this nice Short Sword here. I would like to make it do fire damage. *Wachow!*) would be a very good start. Scrapping much of the item system and rebuilding it with a forging system would be optimal, however I am not unrealistic and realize that that is not exactly a possibility. In lieu of that, adding a forging system would be a help, and I believe you are working on that for enchanting items and such?
Beyond those fairly extreme examples, that fellow's mod (that I would really like to plug, I will find a link or something and add it I swear) is a good start. Some weapons will trigger a bleed effect, some will stun, some will slow an enemy's movement. Now, I think he is going a bit too far with it by applying this sort of thing to every weapon. I think it should have the core weapons that don't add effects (for instance the sword lines), and some that do (maces - stun, axes - bleed, etc), but it would offer good reasons for variation. Right now the only variation really necessary is what's cheaper so you can afford larger squads and still 1-shot the enemy. (Semi-ty to Kilsonx again )
This is a fantastic post, with the big key being variability and interest. A more varied, complex, interesting, and working (spell shards) system is necessary before the game can have any remote link to its namesake.
As mentioned, a very, very, very good post,
Paradoxical
For your #3 early in the game materials are a bottle neck, but Im with you mid game Im putting out 30-50 or more a turn. Now if we had a structure that would convert materials to gold would be handy. Say 10 to 1 or so might work.
Really the only 3 resources I run low on are Food, Gold, and Crystals .. cant say I run low on elementalem(sp) I have never gotten any..
What I have annoyance with is with the game making units that require the elementalem (sp)ore.. I have none and it gets annoying that each time I level up warfare and unlock any thing, It remakes all the units I just got rid of.
On Items.. Why can I train and outfit 10 guys, equipped with swords, armor for less than just one shortsword? Its my country if I want a sword I would just send some one to grab one from the weapons smith... I doubt that they would question me..
I would not mind if there was an option to have the weapons forged for me.. but a 1000% cost increases ? I would be better off just taking one from one of my dead after a battle.
1 Random loot... Something besides gold, Killed a creature that in its description that the scales from this creature were sought after to make armor... would be nice if they would drop some... even if it took 10 or so to have something made from... would be better.. ..
Make this true if I kill a sovereign who had hoarded night stones .. not my fault he came to raid stuff in my territory...
Item creation..... was looking forward to being able to enchant stuff... Sigh...
Wow nice elemental crystal now if I could do something more with it.. Say at a cost of normal crystals I could add the elemental damage or resistance to a unit.
Or since I have this wonderful building thats +25% to mana for units.... Let me make casters using crystals and say a mancers school.
Adding the Item Elemental Staff of (pick one type) Requires one of the element type to make. Can only make ones related to your magic books. each item adds a set amount of Mana.
With set spells, that require one or more of that elemental equipment .
Crystals are Elementium. It should be better documented I think. I never really have a late-game issue with Materials. I've stored up so many over time that I can field thousands of troops with my 3k+ materials.
Hmm But what are the Black metal looking symble? Lol Im at work and Thought thats what it was called. The one I hear you can only get through high level quest.
That's a good question, given the issue with Adventure currently, I haven't done a lot of the high level questing, because by the time I get to the Adventure Tree due to its nature I'm already almost finished with the game as a whole, so it isn't worth bothering.
Great post. Some folks may consider this stuff "fluff" or "little things" but these items are what will breathe life into this game and give it an exciting depth. The question here is: I see how this game works, now what makes it interesting?
Absolutely, the key is Variability. If there's little to no variance from game to game, it becomes mastering the order of operations and nothing else, and once that is mastered the game is over and there's no reason to play. The systems in Elemental are excellent conceptually, they just need that little extra to make them be "good concepts" to the potential those concepts have for making a pretty cool game because the best in the Genre for years to come.
Alright, I'll say it too: Great post!
We definitely need random events (it's shocking that it's not in here already)! I love the idea of a Janusk choice. I was thinking having him pop up every game with tips is going to get stale fast. Your idea would remedy that.
Updated the OP with a few more ideas, ty kilsonx for some great further suggestions.
This does actually happen already. It's very infrequent though. I some times get health pots of random enemies, or a map that shows me the location of a city I didn't know about before. Again (broken record here), the basis is there for something nice, and just enough content to imply they're thinking that direction. We won't really know until they start patching in a lot of the content that didn't ship with release, or wasn't finished yet.
On the basis, I like the gist of the ideas, but I fairly despise any thing that is a percentage, or multiplicative factor. I prefer addative effects based off resources, environment, and management.
W
Wow, must be insanely rare.... I have yet to get any thing but gold.... Just for fun I rampaged around trying to level to see if it unlocked any abilitys.. Thought I read that in the manual... But did not have any drops beside gold... just stayed where they were spawning... so I could fight 2-3 times a turn.. Found out that if you dont move most of the time attacking a stack next to you dose not use movment... not sure if thats a bug or a feature... spent about 100+ turns just killing lvl 5+ mobs.. and never got any thing besides money...
But Have been having good luck finding essence pots in lvl 2 quest... I seem to get 2-5 per game... all it takes is one to embue a champion.
Very nice post and quite a few good suggestion. However I have that I don't like so much. Not per se, but its exploitable:
I already have this nasty "Merchant of Troy" idea. ... Imagine the following scene at the border:
"Oh, this large group of guys with hammers and bows? ... They are weapon traders. Weapons are THE market right now, with all those monsters. See."
"Traders? So many? And why are they wearing their armor and carrying the weapons?"
"Display, good man, its all display. Got to show the folks what they could buy.Its all display. ... Oh, and some are guards. ... They are absolutely, I repeat, ABSOLUTELY not an armed force, that we sneak into your country via a caravan to invade *insert random city name you can't pronounce*!"
"Seems I just imagined things then. ... Well, you can pass."
You get the point. *evil grin*
Rabenhoff
Raben: That's easily avoidable by making it a very limited grouping. i.e. you can group 2 squads with 1 caravan. Also if you tie them completely to the caravan, just like you can't just shift a caravan to another city, you have to disband it, so too would you have to disband the squad in order to remove it.
That is something you can generally resolve with other mechanics.
Should be a Warfare Tech Unlock... Say Deception- Fool your oppenets - Hide your forces in a caravan.
That is the idea. Given the nature of resources in the game, the way that you would simulate those sorts of things would be multiplicative adjustment. For instance using the City growth system that was mentioned in the other thread, you are effectively retooling via management what the focus of the city is. One could make that less a "bonus" and more a complete "retool" by reducing function in other categories at the same time that function is increased in the categories you are choosing.
...in fact now that I think about it that would be pretty awesome.
Yes, maybe. But I'm wondering whether I would ever commit my troops in such a way without any hope of ever seeing them again? It just takes away to many options. I think I would rather stick with microing the troops along the road.
Or only letting you remove them from the caravan in your city. Maybe have a button on the caravan, Release Gaurds .. that as soon as the caravan reached one of your cities it would remove the troups from the group.
Or at the very least within your own cultural borders.
Ooh! ooh! I'll throw some in!
As was said above, there is a choice between hammers and swords. Huzzah for choices. What would be nice is if the choices were more than just RAWRDAMAGE and RAWRBALANCE. Give certain weapons either the power to unleash a special ability, or let us train units into using a special ability. I mean, what's the difference between units end-game, aside from their weapons? I have dukes, archdukes, legendarydukes, knights, superknights, observers out the wazoo, and six kinds of archers.
Alpha centauri (I keep mentioning this game for some reason...hm...) had the players get the option, later on (mid game for one, semi-late game for two) to add special abilities to units. These could be anything under the sun - increased attack and defense against psy damage (which was based entirely on unit level, and was, ultimately, a second form of combat), being able to attack flying units, being able to bomb structures, being able to fire artillery shots, being able to use bio warfare (nerve gas pods ftw) and a host of other abilities. Some were useful, others less so. Ultimately, they made units unique.
If I compare my 30 kinds of dukes to Capitar's 30 kinds of dukes, what do I get? Chances are that they will be more than similar - they'll be mostly exact. We don't even have the benefits of Gal Civ's ship creation to make things unique - they still look the same, fight the same, and eventually die the same.
Some special abilities...
Alpha Centauri also made heavy use of Terraformers, which were basically things that let you alter the lands around your cities. They would let you plant trees, etc. But they also let you build things that were actually useful to have. Building a sensor tower let me see things in the immediate area. While the tech level for AC was much higher than Elemental, there is the fact that being restricted to building cities to defend tracts of land is fairly foolish. Especially since in this time period, amazing castles with glistening walls
Also, can we please - PLEASE - position units at the start of battle? It really sucks when my melee units are BEHIND my archers in a battle.
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