I speak to you now as a gamer. A person giving his own personal opinion of Elemental's multiplayer experience.
I don't find Elemental's multiplayer in 1.0 to be fun in general. Elemental was designed as a single player game that happens to have MP. And this has come through in the final version.
There is one exception: Playing 2 people as part of a team vs. AI players is fairly fun. But playing against random players is just an exercise in frustration. This is a game that requires a significant amount of time investment and too many random games will end in dissatisfaction in my opinion.
I do think the game has potential with a group of friends playing together. But I don't think it's there yet. I think it'll take more time and more thought to do this.
Here is what Stardock will need to do, and plans to do, in order to make MP more enjoyable:
#1 Local Servers.
On day 0, all MP games will get their data from dedicated servers that Stardock has put in place around the world. We are doing this to eliminate connectivity issues. Connectivity marred the launch of Demigod and it is my opinion that if we had had dedicated servers in the first place, Demigod would have had a much better experience. (as opposed to having a particular individual host a game).
However, in the mid-term to long-term, Stardock WILL be providing custom servers so that people can mod up their own games and put them on their own networks to host games. The priority this is given will depend on the demand of course but regardless, it is something I will be insisting be done because I really think that the best long term success path for Elemental is in letting users take Elemental and do cool and interesting things to it.
#2 More Multiplayer Game Options.
I would like to see the tactical battles take on a life of their own. The day 0 multiplayer does not have tactical battles in them. We took them out. Yes, in an ideal world we could have made this an option, but anyone who has been on a forum for any amount of time knows that you'd still have people flaming us who found tactical battles boring because while the other guy was fighting some drawn out battle, they were stuck watching it.
I don't have any ready ideas on how to make this better except to say that I would like to see tactical battles made into a seperate game mode where players pick their units before the game and then go up against other players with those units.
This is an idea we'll have to think about more and see when or if it can be implemented at a reasonable cost.
#3 LOTS more game play styles
I don't really have any good ideas on this as I don't generally play TBS games in multiplayer (even with friends). We play a lot of Settlers of Katan here and Twilight Imperium as board games but I think we will have to look at more game modes (and these can be made available in SP as well) to help make MP more fun.
My advice would be this: If you are buying Elemental primarily for MP, don't. It has it. It works. But IMO, it's not worth $50 to play the game MP primarily. If you like MP in ADDITION to having a fantastic single player game (and make no mistake, Elemental, as a single player game, is awesome in its release form) then absolutely, get it.
So there's my 2 cents.
Frogboy, you may want to talk to Mr Cirulis and Ms Dembo of Kerberous Productions, They produce a great space 4x game called Sword of the Stars that features realtime battles often lasting 3-4 minutes (and often several fights a turn in later gameplay). They may be able to offer some insight on your conundrum.
I'll weigh in my 2 cents here too. To say I don't feel any disappointment would be an understatement, While I know I will enjoy the hell out of the single player game still, and Will be gleefully making maps for pnp games with the map maker;I did pre-order 3 copies of the game for my and my friends for multiplayer. So I guess I'm a little angry and disappointed by this. Now I understand your position, but understand ours. The difference between those copies sitting unused and being used is a check-box entitled "allow tactical battles". I don't speak for even a majority of the gamers here but I do speak for my group in this - we were looking forward to this because of the tactical battles.Its why we own 5 copies of Sots and 1 copy of Galciv, and why we own 4 copies of AoW:SM.
Again I do understand where you arecoming from in this decision, so all I really ask is please make getting tactical battles up to snuff a priority, or Implement them as optional - ie not the default mulitiplayer setting but an additional option. It will make for many happy customers.
Frogboy said the tactical battles weren't fun. But he said he isn't a good advocate for multiplayer in TBS AND he didn't really play multiplayer in TBS. I don't think it's a good idea to have someone who doesn't like multiplayer in TBS to try and decide what is fun in multiplayer TBS. That's why we're hearing these weird pseudo mini games being thrown around, wizard duels, stream-lined games (dumbed down games). It was a fair assumption that playing the SP game with other people was what we were going to get because that is pretty much how all the other TBS games do it.
I say give us the SP game, all of it, in MP and let the MP community tell you what needs to be fixed and what would be great to add. I am certainly not going to buy it and play MP as is so I don't know that the we can't say anything until we play current MP approach works becuase as is, I have no interest in this game, MP.
He said "I don't find Elemental's multiplayer in 1.0 to be fun in general." I don't see him mention tactical battles as the cause, just a cause for whiners, lol. Other than special items and the like the TBs would be the same as SP no?
Maybe someone else on their team gudied the multiplayer process more than Brad since he dosn't really like multiplayer in this kind of game anyway?
yeah thats the point
do you have any sort of logic thought?
if they removed tac battle ofc they do think the mp game WITHOUT tac battles is better
I guess I'm still curious what exactly is in the multiplayer version of the game. So far, tactical battles are out, and I just read that quests were taken out.
Are these changes only for the dedicated Stardock servers? Will we be able to set whatever game rules we want when you enable custom servers?
You add absolutely nothing to the discussions by throwing around insults.
As for tactical battles, they were in HOMM, and AOW and there is another series I can't seem to remember. Removing them makes no sense.
That was not an insult - you talk, rightly, about how Brad dosn't really do TBS multiplayer and how hes probably not the best guy to decide how to make one.
However there are more people than just Frogboy, there are other people working on Elemental. Perhaps some of those actually LIKE multiplayer who would be guiding this more? What is there input into this? If TBs are the same as single player they should be as fun as single player, the only thing mentioned about them was that they drew out the length of the game - if thats the only reason they were removed then thats a dumb reason since they all ready built a feature to deal with that into the game. If they were simply made "non-standard" then why ELSE is multiplayer not fun? Surely its not just Brad sitting on his throne saying "NI NI NI!". (I wonder if he has a throne?)
Bassically they couldn't compensate (because of time) for 'issues' with multiplayer that wern't friends or coop which effectivly screwed over those two groups. Why didn't some one on the elemental team say "OH NOES! We are screwing these guys because these guys are whiners!" and add options for those gameplay features (quests, TB and everything else they removed). If it didn't work in multiplayer then fair enough but removing it for gameplay makes no sense to me.
Anyway Ill go reword it, just for you!
I would like to point out one thing. If we had a proper MP beta, this disscusion would most probably never happened. But they did not test MP at all, other then, "can we connect" phase, and at the end they have decided to please people who like to play fast and simple.
I mean common, this is 4x game. Everyone who decides to play any 4x game does not expect to finish game in 20 minutes. And I am sure that people who play those types of games, play them for their complexity and replayability.
"We took them out. Yes, in an ideal world we could have made this an option, but anyone who has been on a forum for any amount of time knows that you'd still have people flaming us who found tactical battles boring because while the other guy was fighting some drawn out battle, they were stuck watching it."
Ok now, who you want to please? what game are you making? Do you want to please those who like 4x games and your fans, or those who like instant action and fast gameplay? You have decided to remove tactical battles for people who does not want to play 4x game. And you would rather hear flaming from the fans of the genre? So be it...
I think, you should realise, that elemental, is not suitable for any competetive gameplay. And I do not think it will ever be. For this type of gameplay, you need simplicity(for the balance), and short games.
If you would make something like, wizzard battles(only tactical combat), with given points, which each player can use, for building army and customizing sorvegin, then yes. Something like this can work nicely, with ladders and matchmaking.
It is up to you, do wathever you fancy. Just give us, custom servers, or LAN and I am sure, people will make mods, which will deal with MP nicely.
Edit:
Sword of the stars has done one very nice thing. It allowed anyone to join any created game over the internet (if creator allowed to), and join the game at any point, and also leave at any point. If player left, AI took control of his empire for the time he was being gone. Player could set how AI should act for the time when player is gone. It is really nice touch.
Battles were done in real time, with overall time limit and if battle was not decided in that time limit, it continued in next turn. Which does not work for elemental. But time limit for every move in tactical combat would be welcome.
Overall SotS is the most playable 4x game in MP, in my opinion.
hmm i have a sneaking suspicion that the game engine cannot do tactical battles while the other players are off looking at their own lands and whatnot. if there are 6 players, and a tactical battle takes place, do the other 4 have to watch them, or can they do other stuff while its taking place? is it a game engine limitation? if 2 enemies walk into my lands, and i can see them, and they engage each other will i get an animation of them swinging away, while they fight privately? or will i get thrown into the battle as a spectator?
because, if in order to have tactical battles i have to watch every battle that takes place(whether its my faction or not), then i totally understand why they were taken out. that would be a terrible experience.
This is how AoW worked, and yeah was a little annoying at times, but the game always had a switch to disable tactical battles.
Again, I think there are perfectly valid concerns over having tactical battles in multiplayer TBS games, but what I don't understand is why these concerns aren't being left up to the players.
Frogboy addresses why they don't have an option, sort of:
We took them out. Yes, in an ideal world we could have made this an option, but anyone who has been on a forum for any amount of time knows that you'd still have people flaming us who found tactical battles boring because while the other guy was fighting some drawn out battle, they were stuck watching it.
Isn't it just as likely they'll flame on the forums about the lack of tactical battles? Wouldn't leaving it as an option please the most number of people? Same goes for quests, and whatever else is being gutted from the MP portion of the game.
Thats what I don't get. His reason was "people will flame" but with an option they could not flame because there would be no tactical battles if switched off (or they have no one that wants to play the same way as them - can't flame Stardock for that can you?). With an option the coopers and communitys wont flame either.
Maybe they would flame that they arn't good enough or whatever but thats not the point, why would anyone flame about a feature that you can turn completly OFF or have as an in game option (autoresolve/play) along with the threshold.
So there must be some other reason why they decided against them (must have been weeks or months ago when they took them out).
I've been watching this games progression for several months now, and I've been looking forward to a replacement for AOW:SM to play with friends.
Fortunately I usually wait until the last day to preorder just for this sort of reason. The first hint was the declaration that multiplayer connection worries were being pushed off to a third party service. Now with static maps and no tactical battles I don't really see a point.
I'm patient I suppose. I'll just check back towards the end of the year and see how much love the multiplayer aspects of the game have gotten.
the thing is, if there are 8 players and 8 AI opponents. by turn 200, you would be seeing possibly 20 or more battles a turn, this would drive me insane. turns would take 30 minutes to an hour apiece, talk about pacing problem! i just wonder if it is a game engine issue. it might be that the way the current game is programmed, you either watch all tactical battles or none at all. why would i want to watch every battle my opponent gets into with the AI? i do hope though that with custom servers you can turn them back on. i wouldn't mind watching a couple of my friends worth of tactical battles.
I think the problem is ultimately, Brad assumed that the main thrust of Elemental's MP would be competitive, when really it's just as likely to be casual or cooperative.
Too much Starcraft 2 perhaps?
The other thing I worry about for the MP folks (I'm not one of them) as that the gimped MP will get shunned, leading SD to say "see, people don't play MP" and therefore not make it work.
That said AOW2 MP was horribly busted, though I think player mods and house rules solved a good bit of the problem.
Which is exactly why you would be given the option to set battles to auto-resolve-only when creating the multiplayer game.
And most the time the AI battles aren't show in most TBS games. I know they say 16 players, something about 32 on custom servers later, but I don't think the majority of people will play that many. If they do, there could be eenough options to scale down turns like disabling tactical battles and quests.
I personally would plan to play MP only with friends; if options are taken out of LAN games, that would weaken the experience. I've played many awesome matches of AOW2 with friends, and it would be a real shame if Elemental deliberately simplifies the MP game in this respect.
I'll wait and see what they changed, but I was really more interested (in terms of multiplayer) in playing the single player game with one or two other people, probably co-op against the AI, than in a massive competitive game against strangers. Hopefully that is still possible without too much being cut out
I don't mind, especially if you can alt-tab out or play in windowed mode, waiting while other battles are resolved if I am just playing with friends. Though I can see the annoyance both with that and with super-items if playing competitively.
sure, when AI fights AI its not shown, but if a human attacks an AI and fights a tac battle then yeah your going to have to watch it. that's the idea i am getting from stardock, that the game engine works this way. to me, if thats the way the game works, then for the dedicated stardock servers then autoresolve only should be enabled, and when the custom servers are released to us then there should be a threshold limit set by the host.
Yeah I kind of wonder if the tactical battles are being disabled for the sake not swamping the Elemental servers, or because they might lead to game instability and crashes, or some other reason that wasn't mentioned in the original post.
Until we can get custom servers which enable the full SP experience in multiplayer I'm just not sure how fun the game is going to be to play multiplayer. The problem is some of the changes affect other aspects of the game. For example, since quests are being taken out, the adventure tech tree will be much more limited and there won't be quest giving locations on the map and thus exploring the map won't be as fun. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that the maps will not be randomly generated, but will be pre-made "balanced" maps. Also in this regard, the lack of tactical battles takes away some of the fun of using magic, because much of the magic in the game is cast in tactical battles.
I still might recommend the game to my current TBS group of friends, AoW: SM is getting a bit long in the tooth. However I would definitely like a more precise run-down of what exactly is and isn't in the MP mode at the moment so I can relay that to them for us to decide (I've already bought the game myself). So far all I've heard from Frogboy is: No Tactical Battles, No Quests, No Randomly Generated maps. Can we still create our own race/sovereign and play it in multiplayer? What types of victory conditions are available, is it just a deathmatch? Are champions still in, or were they deemed too imbalanced due to the randomness of which ones you will recruit? Was the Dynasty mode taken out?
Whats the 2nd commandment? say it! SAY IT!!! :þ
You all seem to be overlooking another aspect of tactical battles if they were included in the online multiplayer suit. Griefing. Imagine this. You are forced to watch every battle someone has with the ai, or players. Well imagine the person who finds it funny to drag out EVERY tac battle for as long as humanly possible. (IE not fighting, running away in circles, etc) just to force you to watch their antics. It WOULD happen.
Bummer. This game seems very interesting. I hope they find a way to make the multiplayer have every aspect of the single player in the same detailed way. It is a great sign though, that they are at least addressing the absence of tactical battles in a post. Just make everything that could slow the game down in multiplayer an optional thing. Many of us will want all the bells and whistles and aren't as concerned how many battles we have to watch or the time it takes. Some like chess, others checkers and some prefer tic tac toe. None of us should be forced to play tic tac toe because the ttt group hates chess.
I agree with those that think its at least partially a technical issue.
Still looking forward to the game!
Taking away tactical battles wouldn't solve thta issue because griefers could just delay their strategic map turns as well.
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