You had me, when I read about Elemental's planned features
You had me, when I learned about this "MoM reimagining"
You had me, when I knew about the feedback-driven development
You had me, when I read about the continuous improvements made on released software
You had me, when I saw the result of the art direction choices
And then you LOST me..
when I saw the details about the activation procedure.
Sorry guys, this is just wrong.
I know piracy is a big issue and all, but such requirements only encourage it, imho.
If I buy something, I want to be able to do what I want with it (except reproducing it, of course).
If I have an obsessive relationship with the whole OS-reinizialization thing, I don't want to DEPEND on the company's kindness every time I intend to re-use something I already own.
I still have MoM, and I tell you, years and years later I DO NOT have to contact and BEG some non-existent company to activate it and play it, since I can do as I please with it.
Too bad really. I was on my way to recharge my prepaid card (which is something I don't use very often really).
Then again, if you implement Nightshade as a terrain bonus, I guess I could capitulate, but that doesn't change my point. You were pitch perfect until that last detail, which is utterly unfair to the customer (at least one like me)
I would like to officially announce that _Scooter_ has won this thread. There's nothing more to see here; move along.
I just wanted to point out to mastroego that he's not the only one worried about the "20 years from now" problem.
The entertainment industry today, and the various DRM methods is employs, are so full of fail that I don't trust anyone anymore. I've seen Walmart, Microsoft, and Yahoo shut down DRM'd music stores, rendering their customers unable to transfer files or even play them in some cases. I've seen Amazon delete legitimately purchased ebook versions of 1984 from customers' kindles. I've seen EA and Microsoft shut down online multiplayer for games only a few years old. Is it any wonder some people don't trust publishers with the power to deny them access to their games? Nowadays, if I can't play it in a shack in the woods with nothing but a computer, a generator, and the radioactive fallout left behind by the destruction of human civilization, then I consider it a rental and refuse to pay anything more than rental prices.
Last week I reinstalled Alpha Centauri, and was pleasantly surprised to discover that it has no disc-checks or activations of any kind. Ten years and one company buyout later, the game can still be installed and played without issue. And if I'm still playing Alpha Centauri over a decade after its release, who is to say I won't want to play Elemental or some other new game a decade from now?
Fortunately, Stardock does not retain the ability to mess with my games after I purchase them. If I buy something on Impulse, I own it just as much as I own my copy of Alpha Centauri. I don't need to run Impulse to play, I don't need to activate except to download updates, and I can make an offline backup of my games whenever I want. I could, in theory, install this backup copy on a non-networked computer in a generator-powered shack in the middle of a post-apocalyptic hellhole and blissfully play the final version of Elemental until I die of radiation poisoning. The only way they could possibly make this system less restrictive is if they posted a full download link on the main page with the words "I'M A NAUGHTY TREASURE GALLEON PLUNDER ME HARDER" in giant, flashing, neon-colored script.
So please forgive us if your original post seemed to us as absurd as accusing Gandhi of being a bloodthirsty imperialist. Stardock has a strong reputation for being pro-customer and opposing exactly the kind of DRM you hate, and even went so far as to propose the Gamer's Bill of Rights. I expect we'll both still be able to play Elemental 20 years from now, without needing to ask permission from anyone.
I wouldn't speak too fast there, Spitz. I mean come on, Volcanoes destroying the back-up servers? The Ninja part I could agree with, but, we all know the back-up servers are going to be stolen by angry internet pirates. That's pretty much common knowledge.
I'd still give him half a win though.
...So please forgive us if your original post seemed to us as absurd as accusing Gandhi of being a bloodthirsty imperialist. Stardock has a strong reputation for being pro-customer and opposing exactly the kind of DRM you hate, and even went so far as to propose the Gamer's Bill of Rights. I expect we'll both still be able to play Elemental 20 years from now, without needing to ask permission from anyone.
Jalicos, thanx for the post, you get me completely.
My first post was a rant, but it was also meant to be somewhat humorous, as I already knew I was probably going to buy the game anyway.
You guys defending Stardock's attitude towards customers convinced me that I had to show a little token of appreciation by preordering the game, even if it isn't out nor reviewed yet.
Good post Jalicos. I'm not sure these fears apply to Stardock, but I do worry that game publishers these days really don't care about what people are playing 20 years from now. If you are ok with your game being unplayable in 10 years, then your heart is not in it. I'm surprised that people who work so hard to make games would allow this to happen. Sometimes it's not clear immediately which games will stand the test of time but the one's that do are very important. It would be a real shame if the only thing left of MoM or X-Com were scattered screenshots.
See, I do think they care myself. I think they care so much that they want to ensure that none of their games are playable in 20 years. If you make sure your games, in some cases, are pretty much unplayable as intended within a couple of years due to yanked servers and drm that either stops functioning or conflicts with curren OS systems, then you can continue to churn out crap and watch gamers gobble it up because so many of them have so little restraint they can't help but buy more and more garbage when that is all there is being offered.
It was actually also a lot more work for us to make separate standalone patches. Even Stardock Central (the predecessor to Impulse) was a lot more automated for making updates, so having to make a separate standalone patch actually involved doing folder comparisons, making a a separate installer, etc. Plus, it increased support traffic because people would apply and older patch over a newer version and then they'd have to completely re-install. With Impulse, you download only the files you need and you don't have to worry about applying the patches in the wrong order or having old files not removed.
Which is only good so long as Impulse/Stardock is around. Please don't tell me you're too big or too good to fail. I think we've seen those claims fail enough to make that argument silly. I am with Raven, it miffs me too. At the very least, release a single update patch years later for your older games which shouldn't be so an issue if what you claim is the real reason for you not releasing them.
It's the conflict of Games as Business vs. Games as Art.
Developers are creative people, and creative people tend to take pride in their work. They want the games they make to be as good as possible and be enjoyed by as many people as possible. To them, the game itself is a thing of great value.
Unfortunately, most developers are now under the thumbs of large corporate publishers who see games as nothing more than products to be sold. The only thing that has value to them is a profit margin, and if destroying the creative achievements of their developers after a mere few years will increase those profit margins, they'll do it without hesitation. This is why the indies seem to be the only ones doing anything remotely interesting these days.
I understand their reasoning; I just think it's terribly flawed. If you make a good product and treat your customers right, you don't have to convince them to buy the next game in the sequel, or to try your latest idea. We'll want to do that. I can't tell you the number of series I have left because of buggy ass releases combined with piss poor support, terrible DRM schemes or over-priced sequels that added nothing to the series. Their answer to me taking my dollars elsehwere has been more DRM, more hurdles, hiding patches on their servers and other schemes all designed to take away what little control gamers had over the games we purchased (and really we didn't have much control to begin with) so they can rip it away or and shrug as they hang the out of business sign on the door and claim it wasn't their fault that you have a glorified toaster of a game now or a barelry working product now with the multiplayer component gone, patching servers gone, leaving you stuck with the vanilla buggy as hell release you were stupid enough to buy from them.
I feel for the OP. I do. Why should he trust Stardock anymore than any other company... because fans said he should. Show me a publisher or developer with fans, and I will show you fans that will tell everyont to trust them right up until the doors are closed and the offices are empty. Do I think Stardock will leave buyers of Elemental high and dry in the end... no I don't. Their schemes are a little better than the industry average, with thet industry average being pretty damn bad.
No, but Brad has previously said that if we ever do fail, we'll release updates to remove the activation code before we shut the doors.
Steam has the exact same thing built into Steam. It's actually already there, which is why hacked versions of Steam exist that let you play Steam games without online activation (though no matchmaking or online features, obviously).
Now, if a nuclear war takes out ... Michigan (?) and Stardock goes up in flames, yah, we won't get those activation codes probably. At least, even if we don't ever get them we probably won't be too concerned since, you know, mass global crisis.
My knowledge of BK filings are certainly not as extensive as some others, but at some point in the process what is done to the assets in question is no longer up to the filer. You don't get to just throw your IP and products out the window for free devaluing the product for your creditors just because you feel it's the right thing to do for gamers.
Like I said, i don't see it happening any time soon, but i put little stock into promises that are supposed to be done while lawyers are getting involved, resumes are being sent out and everyone is jumping ship.
It's in the contract :/ Steam does the exact same thing.
Maybe they'd do it before it got to that point - I.e. before the lawyers get involved.
It's not like they'll wake up one day, realize they are about to have the office doors locked up and then be pounding away on their IPads trying to send out "The Code" before those get snatched too.
Heh, not like weird things ever happen like that right? Not as if Sigil employees got their pink slips in the parking lot or anything (pretty sure it was Sigil).
Do you seriously think Frogboy would do that? I mean, the man clearly cares about proving quality games and customer service. If you were talking about any other company I'd probably be with you, but not Stardock.
Of course, not. The fact you are asking just proves you haven't read anything else I've said about Stardock. Look, no one expects these things. How many people would line up to work for a company who is going to round them up in a parking lot to tell them they are fired, or for a company that fires people by e-mail, or even one that rounds up everyone into a room, tells them their job is gone and then has security escort them out. Shit happens. The unexpected happens, and while it is unusual, it HAPPENS. It would be nice not to make sure your customers, you paying customers, aren't dependent on you making sure weird shit doesn't happen because weird shit happens ALL the time.
All I can say is I share none of your concerns.
Probably because you never experienced them. Unlike you, I don't need to be shot, to know I don't want to be shot. And we're dealing with an industry that loses and gains players yearly. It's not if one of them goes down, it's how many.
Yeah, but an industry that's gone through that and still surviving. I mean, if things were that volatile, how do any of the companies survive for more than a year or two?
I mean, sure, it could happen. Anything is possible, both good and bad (but fascinating how people tend to think it applies only to the bad, but not the good).
All I am saying is I understand the fear because I've encountered the problem. I look at some of my old games that i throw into my machine and realize that if these companies did what the companies do today, none of my games would work because they are all gone, and that sucks. I've loaded up a game and got unplayable lag because even though the company is still in existence all the servers for multiplayer are located in Germany now, servers that were forced on gamers just to avoid piracy, the move of course not working.
Not to worry though. I suggest Impulse and Stardock games to people I know all the time. There are a number of us sort of interested in Elemental. If i thought it was a crap company, I wouldn't suggest it, or I would provide a long disclaimer like I do when I mention anything put out by JoWood. Just because I like the company and the games, doesn't mean I am going to be silent on what I don't like. I am going to be verbal and specific about it whenever I can.
Yeah, that was Sigil. But Vanguard bombed so badly that I'm not sure it was a surprise to anybody there.
The fact that Stardock is a privately owned company changes things dramatically when it comes to things like this.
Let not your heart be troubled; enjoy the game until it becomes quaint when you show your grandkids.
Zubaz is Galadriel now? Must've been a costly operation.
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