(I posted this in the beta sub-forum, but now I think it belongs here. If it isn't ok to post in more than one place let me know.)
Right now in the beta, you can outfit your sovereigns and champions with different items of weapons, armor etc, but there isn't much of a this-or-that choice in this system because you just want to give them the items with the highest bonuses.
I don't know how much of this is new and how much is already planned for the game (since I can only see whats in beta), but I would like to see more items you can equip characters with that aren't necessarily combat related. So a character might equip wands and wizardly robes that give magic related benefits, formal clothes and badges of office that help with diplomacy and recruiting heroes and so on.
As it is, when I started my second game in beta 2 with Lady Procipinee as sovereign, I had no reason not to visit the item shop and exchange the ladylike clothes for unstylish leather armor and swap her magical staff for a sword. When that was done, she looked exactly like Lord Markinn from my first beta 2 game.
I see two potential problems with the inventory system I hope will be addressed.
The first is that, even after the systems for magic, diplomacy, and so on are implemented, all the players will prefer similar equpment "builds" for character specialties. Thus all the magician-types will look alike and all the diplomats will have similar items, just like all the characters are built as warriors now.
I think that this will happen if the choice between items is more of a quantitative choice between items that are obviously better or worse for the same purpose, rather than a qualitative choice between items that do different things. Given a choice between a +2 bonus and a +4 bonus, everyone will take the +4. But if one item gives a +2 bonus to fire spell effectiveness and another lowers spell mana costs by -2, then different people would take different things each time.
So I hope that the content will have a minimum of items that do similar things to different degrees (i.e. different quality levels of the same kind of item) and a maximum of items with different effects where one is not obviously more powerful than another. This can lead to the second potential pitfall, which is a little harder.
Right now, characters can take lots of different items and switch between them freely. The problem with this is that players can simply take all the different kinds of items they can on their characters and swap them every time they cast spells, enter battle, do negotiations etc.
So every character can potentially be equipped to do everything in the same turn, when the point of the item system is supposed to be to 1. Add interesting choices in how to equip and specialize your characters and 2. Individualize the characters so that they aren't just faceless chess pieces.
There's no strategic decision-making if you can accumulate a big inventory like in a Monty Haul RPG. It just becomes a repetitive matter of remembering to equip your fire wand every time you cast a fire spell, switch to a water wand to cast a water spell, then to your best weapon for a fight. Multiply this by several item slots and you can spend most of the game reequipping over and over again.
So I think that implementing some limit, or some kind of trade-off, on how many items you can have and on when you can switch between them would make the system much more interesting.
I hope that's food for thought.
Also, I would like to second the proposal that some other people have already put forward, that the equipment a sovereign starts the game with (his first armor, weapons etc) should be paid for out of the player's starting gold rather than the sovereign's character points. The reason for this is that character points spent elsewhere give abilities that last throughout the game, whereas starting equipment becomes obsolete when you obtain better gear. On the other hand, you don't want people to always start the sovereign with no equipment.
I think that a great way to handle this would be to have a seperate "buy starting gear" phase when starting a game, using the shop interface already in palce in the game - giving each player a chance to buy gear for their character before the game starts, in the same way as if they were visiting a town shop. This keeps the cost of equipment consistent - money not character points - and it allows players to experiment with different equipment "builds" in different games, without designing a different sovereign each time.
Excellent post! Really good and very workable ideas.
from me!
Meaningful and interesting choices are the go.
Best regards,Steven.
I second this. Pretty much all of it. The only problem I can think of is the same as with the spells, it might be hard to program the AI to equip its units properly. But loads more diversity in items would be great, and also some kind of limit i inventory (like the classic paperdoll with slots for different gear, and perhaps just a couple of slots representing the "backpack").
Good post.
Tomas
I suppose much of that are "Beta worries" (but are absolutely legitimate for the moment - because it's BETA). I am sure, there will be more and different equip of that kind you mention. At least a lot will appear through modding but first a lot of it will reach the status of the final version.
My worries are about variety too but in case of the diversity of army types. How many different monsters can be hired by my sovereign, are there mercenary soldiers? Some of it might be even tech related.
Very good post and good ideas indeed!
Maybe pretty clothes could impart a charisma bonus. (Although, why would a champion want to join a girl in a pretty dress? LOL)
Limiting inventory slots is a good idea, so players aren't carrying items for every action; but, given how easy it is to exchange items between champions across long distances, players could still do that. Rather than restrict--or make tedious--the inventory management system, it would be good to find other incentives to keeping one or two equipment sets on each character. Just having the sets match is enough for me (i.e., give strength bonus and charisma bonus items a wildly different appearance), but maybe that's not enough for others.
Here's a crazy idea: Chinese Five Harmonies system, whereby one bonus strengthens or cancels out another bonus, such that equipment sets must be harmonized for best effect. Something like that would make it counter-beneficial to arbitrarily swap out one item. It would be complex, though, and it would make "what is the best equipment set" less transparent.
Having one system for players, and another, simpler system for the AI would be one option here, but I think the idea was to have ONE SYSTEM TO RULE THEM ALL. I trust our Froggy Master in his decisions on this matter. He's thought about this long and hard. I believe the benefit of the doubt is warranted.
Thank you.
I think my "Beta worries" are more acute because I joined late. With one month to release it's probably natural to worry that one part or another of the game will be overlooked. But of course I trust Frogboy et al. Champion skill trees were mentioned in the dev journals, which is a good sign for the direction they're going - choices between more different things rather than different amounts of the same thing.
It's possible the developers feel the one-month-to-release anxiety less acutely than the beta testers, since they're in control while we just watch.
I agree with all of these points.
MadInventor, I did not want to dismiss your worries, I share them partially! For me it's my first beta. It's exciting to follow the state of the beta but it's going pretty fast, so it's only natural that these worries occur as you. We'll see how things work out.
I agree as well.
otakucore2,
There already is a "good impression shirt" item in the beta that gives a charisma bonus. It demonstrates the problem I'm talking about - there's no reason not to take it and switch from armor to the charisma shirt each time you recruit a hero and then switch back. It isn't a choice, it's a chore - remembering to switch each time and making more clicks to do so.
I'm not sure the equipment harmonies you propose addresses this - it could make it worse, because players would then want to switch their entire equipment set each time they do something, rather than particular items.
Harmonizing items looks like it's meant to discourage people from having "mixed" outfits, but I like it that you can mix and match items. The problem isn't in the mixing or in carrying multiple items, but that you can reequip any time. If there were limits to this, then there would a choice between specializing your build for one thing or mixing it up to do a little of everything.
That said, the "Chinese Five Harmonies" you mention sounds interesting - could you tell me where I can read more about it?
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