This is going to be long. I beg for forgiveness up front.
So for those of you just tuning in, Elemental has just completed a marathon 8 month Beta 1 cycle. The purpose of which was to explore all kinds of new game mechanics and try different things out. It went so well that in our next game, I’d like to bring the beta people in even earlier.
For Beta 1, we stripped out the graphics engine forcing users to play on a “cloth map” interface. We went through considerable lengths to ensure that beta 1 was unpleasant to play. The goal was to get people to think about what makes a good game rather than thinking about graphics or features per se.
From that marathon beta we got a incredible amount of feedback, online discussions, and lots of debates. We read them at length and they made us think about a lot of different things that we hadn’t thought of before.
So what was the impact? Below I’m going to walk you through the tangible differences to the game based on the betas and the beta tester debates.
No one will ever agree on the single best way to make Elemental. No matter what we do, there will be dissatisified people. It’s inevitable because (and I consider this unfortunate) the gaming industry has reached a point where there is a severe lack of what we call “new IP”. That is, games that don’t include a roman numeral after the name. Worse, when we do get new games, they’re increasingly designed to work on both PC and consoles which means that their feature set has to work on the lowest common denominator. As a result, Elemental has a lot of hopes behind it.
But we have to be careful. Anything designed to be all things to all people is doomed to failure. So with Elemental, we’ve had to really consider what the game is about and focus on that game.
Camp #1: The Settlers Camp
This is the camp I’m nominally from. That’s where you mine resources which in turn get processed into one thing and then turned into another before being used as yet another. The economic system in Elemental was (early on) very much like this. You mined metal. This metal was processed into metal bars which in turn were turned into weapons, armor, etc. Which in turn were shipped to where you wanted to build the unit.
This was one of the concepts that the beta program jetisoned. Not because it was a bad idea but because A) there is a “Settlers” game already and it would so overwhelm the rest of the game.
Camp #2: The Master of Magic Clone Camp
I am nominally part of this camp as well. This camp’s input tended to be “Master of Magic had X” and that itself was enough to argue that Elemental should have it. While Elemental is almost certainly the most similar game to MoM since MoM itself, it is, by no means, a clone of it.
Camp #3: The Fall from Heaven Camp
The popular Civ IV mod has lots of fans (myself included). There’s certainly plenty of items in Elemental that are similar to what is in Fall from Heaven since both ultimately are civilization style games.
Camp #4: The Panzer General / Magic: Total War camp
This is the group that argued, quite correctly that with a subtitle “War of Magic” that it made sense to focus on the warfare elements of the game.
Camp #5: The SimFantasy camp
The term isn’t meant to be dismissive of those who would like a truly organic world. At the one extreme, you have Elemental as a board game and at the other extreme you have Elemental as a fantasy world simulation.
So what are some of the big changes that occurred because of the massive beta?
In no particular order:
With Beta 2 expected in the next couple weeks, we’ll have a pretty good idea whether release is going to be this Summer or next Winter. (Fall is “booked” at retail). I personally believe that late Summer is still likely but we’ll see. Beta 2 will give us a pretty good sense of where things stand.
The big questions in our minds will be the role of the NPCs in the world and the role of quests in the world. Their inclusion are the most obvious “differentiators” for Elemental. We’ll be balancing and enhancing those features for years to come.
Whoa whoa whoa, what? I know I missed a lot this last month or so when I've been busy with real life stuff and only checked the forums occasionally, but I had no idea tactical battles were changed to being turn-based. When did that happen? I'm actually kind of disappointed about this, I generally like RTS combat more.
Sorry to disagree, but I am extremely happy and excited to hear about this change!
Ever since I heard about the plan to do tactical combats RTS or continuous-style I was disappointed and hoping that they would change back their mind to a traditional turn and tile based approach. MoM, AoW, HoMM, X-Com, Shining Force, Langrisser, FF Tactics, KB:TL - they were so much fun - I never understood their motives in the first place to go real-time.
All good news. And no need to beg for forgiveness Frogboy, it's yours for the asking.
You just have to reciprocate when perhaps we become too attached to our own personal views of how things should be.
Such as "more eye candy and 3D animations". - He who shall not be named
Regarding NPCs and quests - I really would like the NPCs to have some personality. Like some NPCs if they offer their services and you say No, they may just shrug their shoulders and go about their business. Others may have their pride injured by your rejection and may actively offer themselves to an enemy to amke you "see the light" regarding their value. I don't think NPCs that you hire should be able to betray you, but loyalty may range from they idolize you and will always defend your interests to, shall we say, "What's in it for me?" types. etc.
Quests, I hope to see stand- alone quests, quest lines (that are unrelated to the quest victory) and the quest victory line of quests. However, I would like to see the quest victory be randomized between games - one game, saving the princess may be a stand alone quest, but in antther game it may be the first quest in a quest line, or may even be a early stepping stone that will lead to information towards the quest victory. I think it is really critical that there is this kind of dynamic quest system to keep that aspect of the game from getting stale. I am liking a lot of what I am seeing in the quest system, but I am hoping that it is still in the early development stages with some fleshing out to come.
I really wanted the economic system that it sounds like you were leaning towards, but I agree it would have overwhelmed this game. I love the decisions you have made so far.
As far as the tile based tactical combat - this makes it more Master of Magic-like, so you know I am very much in favor!
I also prefer the turn based combat idea in a game like this. Don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to Starcraft II but I feel an otherwise turn based game with an RTS hidden in it wouldn't really work for me. Which just goes to show that indeed you can't please everyone.
Loved XCom by the way still a classic.
This is the best bit of news I have heard so far. Least as long as we are interpterting it right.
Turn-based and tile-based is what I like There are lots of RTS games (and TBS with RTS battles, like the Total War series), but not many purely TBS games, so this change brings me closer to buying this one
Long? You call that long? PM me for some lessons on "Wall of Text"ing.
Ok, your sneak attack was successfull. Now give us more info!!! And remember that Hortz needs good videos about the animations! Those are the most important part of any game (or so he claims).
To each his own. When it was first said that combat would be real-time/continuous turn, I was surprised, because I was expecting turn-based. So now they're really just conforming with my orignal assumption. Besides, Frogboy has already said that it wouldn't be too hard to mod the game to be real-time, and I assume the same will be true of tactical combat. Elemental is still one of my most anticipated games, this doesn't change that.
The Elemental engine is an RTS engine. But when we played through tactical battles it just came back over and over again to discussions on the forums where users were understandably expecting combat to be more along the lines of Master of Magic, Xcom, HOMM, etc. And it just plays better.
Indeed, when I first read that I was thinking what the hell? When did that happen? Now I am aware certain people on the forums didn't like the RTS / Continuous turn possibility just like some people didn't like the tile / turn based system possibility for tactical combat but to my knowledge there hasn't been a decisive and conclusive argument either way. Brad, if I might suggest an official debate / vote on the subject to see if there is any conclusive feelings.
Obviously I'd prefer a RTS type of tactical combat.
We really can't do something like this as a vote. What we can do is make sure that modders can change it later on if they want to do so.
Bear in mind, we don't just put in fan requests willy nilly. We try them out ourselves. We concluded that it was kind of a "bait and switch" to have the main game be turn based and tactical battles become RTS. Especially since tactical battles aren't the main feature of the game (ala Total War)/.
Good post Froggie, but I don't agree with the bolded part. It's just micro. I can understand that some or maybe most of the casual gamers wouldn't like to play with a micro "heavy" eco system, but it wouldn't overhelm the rest of the game. That being said, I think that it was a good choice to "simplify" the eco system, because more people will buy the game with the current "settings".
Agreed. The Turn/Tile based combat system works perfectly in a game like this. I am also happy that the devs changed their mind.
I assume though, that even though the RTS functionality won't be employed for the official base release, it'll still be there in the engine awaiting intrepid modders to come along and blow us all away with it?
Personally, I'm quite content with either continuous turn or classic turn based combat, RTS I can get in any number of other places so while it wouldn't have been a deal breaker to me, would certainly have preferred another style.
Most exciting thing to me is the increased modability that I think it'd allow if I'm correct in the assumption it'll still be there lurking around in the background!
I really think that before we begin voting and arguing, we should see the Tactical Combat.
Ps: I remember to have read somewhere that it would be continuous turns, but being able to slow things down to turn-based or speed it up to RTS. Am I going crazy or what?
Actually it kinda was lol. While I can emphasize with the RTS'ers. When i first started looking at this game before I got into beta I saw it said TBS and my heart leapt.
Everyone has RTS combat now even in their TBS's. You know how hard it is to find TBS Combat now-a-days. It is why alot of games don't last that long with me. I like to think, to strategize, and to surprise. With RTS's you can do it, but i am to old and slow now-a-days for that.
While I would've liked trying out tactical combat with RTS vs TB systems for myself that ship already left the port. I guess I'll just have to get over it although I do feel dissatisfied about the decision.
I've gotta say: I'm from the MoM and Settlers camp.
The thing with that is, I've got Settlers 7 (A disappointment, but Settlers none-the-less!), Dawn of Discovery and various other economic simulations that I keep going back to. (Caeser 3, lately)
So I don't really want that in this sort of game. I want this to focus more on your typical sort of 4X. 4X-Eco-City-Sim would simply cause my mind to BSOD.
As for tactical battles being turn-based: Wait, they were originally RTS? What insanity is this?
Ra-ra-shish-boom-ba, Beta 2.
Yea, originally the battles were continous turns, pixel-based ala Baldur's Gate. The problem users pointed out on the forums and we eventually agreed with is that it's kind of bait and switch.
Not long enough I say.
Some titles have attempted to incorporate RTS battles into turn-based games and I am always let down once the fightin' starts. I am busy plotting my development and then have to jump into a battle that requires much more clicking than I would want. Plus, taking a descendant of MoM into the RTS realm is heresy!!!
I too would have liked a richer economic system, but I will defer to you who are overseeing the big picture as opposed to me who would attempt to put together a "5 Favorite Features" list in which I try to cram all that I like into one game without much regard as to their interplay and the difficulty of implementation. Just trying to figure out which "camp(s)" I am in is challenge enough.
EDIT: I am voting camps 1, 2, 3 and 5. Can I do that?
This is very good news, in the beginning I always expected the battles to be turn-based like the rest of the game. Hope they are as good - or even better - than AoWSM, with even more you can do and have to take into account tactically, like weather, elevation, terrain types, for example.
Yeah, exactly the opposite reaction for me. A pure RTS, like Starcraft, would have been very bad. RTS like Total War is fine if pauses are allowed at any time. My problem with this is multiplayer where many want to restrict pauses though. Continuous turns like Baldur's gate is pretty similar and would work fine but I would worry about multiplayer again with pauses. I don't want reaction time to be a consideration in my turn based strategy games at all, period. If that can be elimated through pauses I am ok with it but personally would just prefer turn based.
I actually do not mind about Turn Base or Real Time combat, I like both. I think that Real Time could be faster, so MP games could be played with faster pace, but Turn Base is definitely for those who likes to think about tactics and precision.
For me i still thinks that winter would be better for elemental, do not forget, that first impression is everything. You must make it right for the first time, or you will turn of many customers.
Reason for this is, that you might have much more advanced build then we have, but not everything is about features. You still have to implement them, and I believe there will still be some changes and major tweaks on that stuff which is not in yet, from player feedback.
Last, we need balance, we need diversity in playstyles, we need to have game unique every time we play (not completely, but at least partialy). For this, balance is most important thing and you can not really start balancing unless you have complete game. If you make balance right, you will open much more choices for players and strategies which would lead to much more interesting and diverse games, and I think good balance (there can not be perfect) takes few to several months on its own.
That is the reason why I would like to see later release, but I do believe in your judgement . GL froggie
So, about those bear cavalries..
I'd really love to see one tactical combat, I always loved X-com and I'm intrigued about the combat system...
Could we have some screenshots? At least 1... The screenshots in the media section are quite old...
How will things like explosions and the related physics be treated? Ex: A fireball explodes and throws units around.Will we have this kind of physics implemented?
Ps: Sorry for my bad english once again...
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