I started this a couple weeks ago, got really far in like a day, then have been at work non-stop ever since. But I was off yesterday and so I finished it. Couple things I want to say about it though:
There is more I wanted to do with it, but I figured it works like this, so I should let it out now before I get side-tracked on something else
It is an Excel file. I know thats not what everyone is used to, but the purpose of doing it this way is that I set it up in a way that will let anyone update the chart in a flash. All that is needed is to convert the bins to txt, then hit a giant button. it will ask you for the locations of all the files it pulls from (individually; this is one of those things i wanted to work more on), and import all those files into the chart. I did use an older version of excel (2000).
The .XLS file + PDF <--- Now in one place
edit-updated 12/18/12
This uses the Rebellion stats. Please do not update if you're only interested in Diplomacy stats.
Stats on my stat sheet: 2968 downloads as of last update.... 4945 pdf downloads.
updated with the mine squadron fix, and the addition of the xp chart.
TODO: Make the data import work better so it either knows where to look or tells you what it wants. Sandbox updates, return the data about resources that used to be in there and mysteriously disappeared, add capital ship comparisons, add fleet comparisons, maybe add some kinda neat-o damage-over-time chart. Make data more readable.
Doesn't mean any of that is happening soon, mind you.
Would be nice if you added a structures and starbases tab, too. Doing some number crunching right now on range thresholds, and none of my quick-reference guides have starbase attack ranges listed (Zyrxil's stuff is pre-Entrenchment, this doesn't have a structures page, and the wiki doesn't list attack range at all )
starbases are listed under the capital ship tab. All the way on the bottom. Of course, this is the initial values, not with starbase upgrades.
As for structures, you basically are wanting a listing of the hp of each of the structures? I could probably add that pretty easily. I'm a bit backed up at the moment, but I'll get it in there as it is pretty easy (just slightly time intensive).
Basically all the same stuff as the unit page escept shields. Weapon information is only applicable to turrets, but should still be listed.
Thanks for pointing out the SB info, didn't see it there.
I don't know, how to interpret the Damage Modifier Chart by SithLordAJ. Is it possible to get some help?
The only thing I can understand is the comparison between the Capital Ships within the chart by badken which obviously compares the caps along their firepower.
Some other questions: What's on the chart by Volt_Cruelerz? Does it indicate which vessel to attack with a certain ship type? What does "Non-Combat Frigates" mean? Does it mean Scout Frigates such as the Arcova?
I'd be grateful for any help!
Excel sheets rule!
Each ship has a attack type and an armor class, each attack type does a modified amount of damage to a specific armor class; for example Fighters with an attack type of Antilight do 200% damage to units with the armor class Light; if you look at the armor class collum you will see the units with the light armor class (Colony, Scout, Long, Siege, bombers, AntiModule, Envoy, RefineryShip, Constructor and trade ships); on the other hand the Antilight attack type only does 50% to units with the armor class Medium (units with medium armor are light frigates); with this information you should be able to know which units to build to counter the units the enemy has and which ship type you should order each of your ship types to attack in a battle.
Volt_Cruelerz's is a visual chart of damage modifiers without the actual numbers, non combat frigates are probably ships like the envoy, refinery ship, constructors and trade ships. volt has light frigates countering them but if you look at Sithlords chart they have light armor and light frigates only do 75% damage to light armor
master1a is correct. But to look at it from another perspective (use whichever depiction makes the most sense):
Each ship has an armor class and a damage class. This is in addition to the damage it does and the hit points it has. The damage class is always 'Anti-' something and pairs up with the armor classes. The armor classes are: Very Light, Light, Medium, Heavy, Very Heavy, Capital Ship, Pirate, and Module. So, a ship which does 10 damage per second might do 5 dps, 20 dps, 10 dps or 15 dps, depending on what it is attacking. The reason for this is that certain types of ships are designed to counter other ship types. For instance, Long Range Frigates counter Light Frigates, Fighters counter Long Range Frigates, Flak Frigates counter Fighters, and Light Frigates counter Flak Frigates.
Since, in that last sentence, there was a ton of information and yet it's just the tip of the iceberg, the chart by Volt_Cruelerz helps summarize which ship counters another ship. This chart also takes into account some ways that ships are counters by implementation. For instance, Flak Frigates are listed as counter to Long Range Frigates. This is because Flak are very durable, have good dps, and shoot in all directions. If you can manuever your Flak to be surrounded by Long Range Frigates, the Flak will win. One-on-one might not be so cut and dry, as the Flak loses alot of dps if it isnt surrounded, but it still has great durability. Off the top of my head, I don't know which would win. Sandbox says Flak, but it's pretty close in some matchups.
Here you go. This is part of the multiplayer strategy guide I have - it's not all that relevant to single-player because the AI is too stupid to use ships effectively (just spam LRF or bombers to kill AI).
Each ship has an armor type and a weapon type. Different weapon types are more effective on different armor types. This system is why fighters decimate bombers, why bombers decimate heavy cruisers, why heavy cruisers decimate LRF, and why LRF decimate light frigates. Etc. A good player will know the damage types spreadsheet like the back of their hand. Here is a link to a recent damage types spreadsheet, courtesy of SithLordAJ from the Sins forums:
http://www.mediafire.com/?l4ojbcci0254ar9
You don't need to memorize it necessarily, but you need to understand how to read it to see which ships counter what.
Scouts are good at killing other scouts, colony frigates, siege frigates, and LRF, but nothing else. Advent scouts are particularly good at this due to their high durability. But you usually shouldn't be building many scouts past the first few minutes of the game. To counter scouts, use anything other than LRF: preferably, use flak.
LF are good at killing flak, but that's about it. However, LF are very weak against enemy LRF. In the beginning of the game, you probably shouldn't build more than a couple LF at once, unless the enemy has few or no LRF, which is rare. Exception: Due to the subpar and logistics-expensive Advent LRF (Illuminator), Advent players often build lots of Disciples and Seekers early in the game instead of beelining for LRF.
LRF are the general-purpose offensive combat unit. Early-game, they are the best for countering enemy LF and enemy capital ships, but are also relatively effective at killing structures (especially Orkuluses). Unless you're Advent, you should probably have at least 60 supply worth of LRF built at any time, so that you can fight off enemy capital ships: if the enemy is Vasari, he will probably try to SB your worlds, so it would be nice for you to build a lot more LRF. To counter LRF, build a large number of flak, preferably, or if that's not possible, then build more LRF of your own, or build scouts.
Flak are good at defending against enemy strike craft and light-armor frigates like LRF and scouts. They are pretty cheap and have large hulls - don't be afraid to build 20 or more of them if the enemy is spamming tons of LRF. Flak also have very high listed DPS, but are most effective when all 4 of their banks get to fire (front, back, and sides). Maneuver them into the center of enemy LRF packs for them to do the most damage. They have to be micromanaged a lot - they should also probably be put in Hold Position so they don't go chasing after enemy strike craft halfway across the gravity well. However, each bank doesn't do much damage, so they're more effective if you can 30 or more of them at once. Trying to counter flak is annoying: the best ship to use to counter it is the vulnurable LF, and even then it takes a whole lot of shots to make a dent in the flak's armor.
Sometimes it's best to simply ignore enemy flak and attack enemy planets with your own capital ships and heavier armor ships of your own (flak do next to no damage against ships with medium or heavy armor).
Later in the game when more ships start appearing, things get even more complicated - look at the spreadsheet to see what's best against what.
Did you just link the chart I made in the thread for the chart I made?
Oops, looks like it. I just copy/pasted the text explanation I had for what sort of gameplay the damage/armor types imply...
I put this game down a couple of years ago but began playing it again and am hooked (can't seem to not play for less than 8-10 hours). Anyways, my point being that I certainly appreciate the time and effort you placed into this file. It helped a great deal!
Dave
Welcome back to Sins Dave. I'll add this link to the Modder's Answer page too Sith.
Ok.
FYI, I'm hoping to update this soon with the beta data. I want to tweak some of the equations and and I need to find the raw data to import.
Looking forward to it. We need to identify an open source program that will let you use the excel features.
Well, I was editing it in OpenOffice for awhile, until I realized that it was losing my data queries. Turns out the Queries feature isnt so robust in OpenOffice.
So, I went back to Excel. Now, I don't have excel on my personal computer, but I have access to a remote PC that does, so I use that. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult to tweak the formulas.
you can open up the Excel files in OpenOffice just dandy. You can even play with the formulas. You just can't update the data queries (which is what you have to do when a new version of Sins comes out).
Right. It's definitely one of the areas where OO struggles. Darn proprietary software companies.
Updated with rebellion stuff. Not a lot of other changes, I've been busy.
Just wanted to say thanks a lot for this. I've been getting back into the game a lot with my friends recently and this chart and the wiki have been very helpful in beating them most of the time
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