The Skirantra could be an Awful Warning for improvements to capital ship abilities, and unless the buff to Scramble Bombers is simply reverted with the sync fix, we will simply have the Illuminator bug issue all over again, with months with a severe balance problem. How to avoid a recurrence of this issue when recommending ability alterations? The Skirantra was already a powerful and much used ship- it could kite, it has antimatter-free strikecraft which is like a fifth and passive capital ship ability, it has area heal including strikecraft. Also Scramble Bombers was made vastly more powerful, if the Sova were suddenly to produce twice the number of Missile Battteries at each use at L2 and three times at L3, that still wouldn't be the equivalent of the buff to Scramble Bombers- so perhaps we could try to avoid doubling or tripling the effect of abilities...
Shield Restore The Dunov is a very rarely seen ship in Multiplayer, I've seen more Marauders, so improvements to the Dunov might not cause much pain. Shield Restore heals one ship's shields 250/500/750 and has even been nerfed! It can't heal the Dunov itself and as the Dunov is always the first target, so you really need two Dunovs to use the ability- the Advent Colony ship and Skirantra are best used in pairs, but their heals 300/400/500 (can heal Guardians!) and 200/250/300 (completely heals strikecraft! Who needs Zombie Bombers?) are to an infinite number of ships within the area.
The only direct equivalent is the Kortul's Surge which affects a single ship.. 500/875/1300 heal, plus considerable speed and weapons boost. So the Kortul single ship heal is twice as good, plus speed and weapons boost, plus it can heal itself? And yet the Dunov is meant to be a support ship, and so carries less weapons, armour and health..? Why was Shield Restore ever nerfed?
Of course, the great problem for TEC is the Marza problem, where at Level 6 all their abilities are suddenly extremely good. Flux Field makes all abilities except ultimates three times as cheap, so if you can get a Dunov to level 6, and stop it being destroyed, you then can win a game you must have been winning already. Using ultimates for faction balance is just wrong. As it is TEC have the Sova and Akkan, which haven't a problem with rapid-use heavy antimatter abilities, and the Marza, which has a superpower at level 6- if you want to gamble on getting a single cap to level 6. To make the Dunov work you have to get the Dunov to level 6 plus have several more caps, not an option for normal games. TEC have problems with both early caps and late game play... not a good combination.
Animosity This ability does nothing at any of its levels, except against the AI. It might at least be made an interrupt, though the Radiance already has one. There have been proposals to make this ability more complex with penalties for attacking other targets, but what the Radiance really needs is an area anti-strikecraft power. What amused me was that another of the Dunov's dubious abilities, Magnetize, could be used defensively by the Radiance, to force 8/12/16 strikecraft to 'rage quit' by crashing into the Radiance at the cost of damage.. useful if another ship is being attacked, or at lower level where small numbers of bombers and kiting can be a problem? More strikecraft being affected might help, but at least they would be destroyed, unlike the infamous TEC Flak Burst, which too often achieves nothing at all.
Subversion The Marauder is a better ship than it was, but suffers somewhat from the Level 6 faction problem, and its easy to destroy before Overseers turn up. However Subversion is still rubbish. The cost of 100 is vast, the ability does nothing. To function, there has to be either a constructor building something, or a ship factory at the enemy planet, and both are huge priorities for destruction, rather than a temporary 50% slowdown. On a successful raid into a back area with nothing being built, Subversion has no value at all. An economic penalty to the affected planet might help?
Gauss Rail Gun Jam Weapons and Microphasing Aura seemed possibles, but the Kortul and Skirantra are very good and supreme capital ships respectively, with poor third abilities. The Kol is currently dependent on the creation and survival of a L6 Dunov to make it work.. all its abilities are expensive and it has no passive, unlike the other battleships. The Radiance equivalent of the Gauss Rail Gun does twice the damage and is an interrupt plus disable! The Kortul gets passive interrupts.. I'd consider making either Adaptive Forcefield a passive (why does the antimatter cost increase with level on this ability, it only works when heavy damage is being taken?), or Gauss Rail Gun a passive ability, with a longer cooldown. That would retain the utopian 'effect' of Flux Field on the other abilities but make the Kol a more viable ship in the interim.
Another set of four, there we are, I know everyone has their own opinions on capital ship abilities- but what these threads should perhaps focus on is whether there are better candidates for the four game elements most in need of help, rather than a general survey of the question. What are the worst current elements of the game? Otherwise we get the Skirantra problem, fixes to stuff that wasn't broken.
Might it be possible for you to repeat your concept of Guidance, rather than just provide a link, to avoid any confusion?
I intended the problem of balancing with ultimates as a reference to the balancing of the TEC faction in the late game by the Missile Barrage superpower and also to the dependence of the Kol on the Dunov's Flux Field because it has no passive ability. Capital ship abilities have to be balanced against other abilities including ultimates- any alteration to Guidance should take into account that Flux Field is an ultimate and should always have greater effect.
It is the rule that ultimates should have the greatest effect that Scramble Bombers breaks, the third level is far too good compared to Anima Tempest. The request that Scramble Bombers be reverted was in the first line of the first post. People have claimed for some time that Missile Barrage needed to be nerfed so that it was a reasonable power, this thread would also support that, so long as TEC were offered some compensation in the late game- like allowing the Dunov to protect itself more effectively. So nerfs to these two abilities should definitely be considered. The worst abilities and ships should be the first buffed, though, before any buffs to ships like the Egg.
Not at all, good sir.
My idea was that in addition to lowering the cooldown on the abilities, the affected ship would get a small AM regeneration boost, as well. How much is up for discussion, though.
As I would agree that those abilities still need work, I have to say it's time to stop it. We have the game going nice and smooth right now. Let's not screw it up a 2nd time by making a mistake. Lets just leave it as it is it is fine enough for me.
Its not quite smooth. The Skirantra is currently an incredibly powerful ship and Scramble bombers at level three is arguably better than Anima Tempest. For that reason, some changes are still needed. See my thread for more details.
Well That's because that ability is not really balance-able. It's to similar to anima. A few abilities would need to be removed and replace with a new one. But IC has made it clear that doing such changes as those was not gonna happen.
Scramble Bombers would be far better balanced with Anima Tempest with a simple revert of the latest buff to take it back to the v1.18 version. I'm not sure what could be meant by it not being able to be balanced?
There was a suggestion that the v1.19 Skirantra allows a Vasari player to play above his ability level in single player, so that it might be possible to defeat 2 locked AI without Scramble Bombers and 3 locked AI using Scramble Bombers. The Marza is a similar phenomenon for TEC. To me that doesn't imply that those abilities are essential in their current form, just that they are very much out of line with the powers of their faction and need further work to limit them. If there was a similar Advent ability it might be Repulse, rather than any capital ship ability- though Advent get rather more advantage from a human player than the other factions anyway. Also, it is easier for a human to counter Missile Barrage and Repulse than it is for the AI.
I'm not sure what is meant by nice and smooth either, the new elements introduced by the second expansion are almost all broken, the only outright improvement is the AI. Half the capitals aren't even used. This game could be far superior if all the worst techs and abilities that we've tried to identify in the various threads were boosted. I can't see any of them becoming far too powerful with a single buff, it took Scramble Bombers a long series of buffs before v1.19 to make it all-powerful. It's also annoying to have techs that are never used, when all they need is more appropriate stats or debugging.
The link provided to the Guidance suggestion was.. mildly confusing. A lowered cost for abilities would make as much sense as faster AM regeneration and would be easier to implement, though. Then it could perhaps be balanced using Flux Field.
Oh. Sorry for the confusion.
But that said, I think that's another viable move - lowering the AM cost of abilities would essentially accomplish the same goal as buffing the AM regeneration. Again, how much the AM cost is lowered would have to be discussed.
I've become more familiar with the Revelation recently, I wish I hadn't. Why is it rated higher than the Dunov or Marauder, both of which have useful area of effect abilities?
The best ability is Reverie, but that is another version of the Marauder's Phase Out ability- which also has a defensive use. I'm not at all sure that Reverie is the better ability. However best abilities shouldn't be boosted first.
Clairvoyance is situational, but to get the most use from it you'd need the Revelation as an early capital, and you have to build scouts anyway, and well managed scouts can fulfil the task, and do it with more automation and no antimatter use. Even as the second ability, I'd consider this for a boost. How about a second function, so that you could also curse a single ship, to share its vision permanently?
Guidance reduces cooldowns by 40%. That's all. Like Clairvoyance, this is another ability with a situational use that doesn't really justify there being three levels of it. Another option to lowering antimatter costs might be to extend the duration of abilities, when it would become far more valuable... and less like a cheaper version of Flux Field. If it were instead to increase duration of non-ultimate abilities by perhaps 200% it could itself become an ultimate, which might resolve...
Provoke Hysteria is a very poor ultimate. For a siege cap, it has the worst siege ability in the game. What you want a siege cap to do most is to take down weak defences quickly, and a L6 Revelation can't. If you can siege a heavily defended planet you usually have the grav well anyway, plus Provoke Hysteria isn't even very good at that either. Also, this is the sort of ability that is easy to improve over three stages.
As it's unlikely that Guidance and Provoke Hysteria will be exchanged, how about a different mechanic for Provoke Hysteria? I'd have it as a basic rate of damage, say 20-30/s, then make it reduce allegiance 1%/s and extend the duration to 80s. That might be more in keeping with the Advent style, plus it seems unlikely that hardened defences would be affected as much by riots. It might also make it effective, as opposed to rubbish. Also, the animation would last longer!
Des...
That...
Is...
BRILLIANT!
Provoke Hysteria really is a rather crap ability, as it stands - but -1% allegiance/second?! Now THAT'S an ability.
The idea for Clairvoyance is also an interesting idea - I already foresee people "bugging" trade ships for information.
Of course, we've already spoken a little on Guidance and what to do with that, so I won't mention that, again.
Des, first let me say: An awesome thread! I've been away for a few months, and finally got around to reading this and really enjoyed it. Later, I hope to add observations regarding your OP, as well as some of the following comments.
But, mainly I agree that the Dunov's Shield Restore needs to be able to restore itself. And yeah increase the amount of shield restored again. That change IS needed. The others I dont really care about. Don't forget that Subversion stacks.
I believe there are misconceptions about the Marza's Radiation Bomb & Incendiary Shells, but I will have to do some additional research first. I believe Darvin's numbers for Radiation damage are much too high - the secondary affect to surrounding targets is much lower. And I believe Incendiary shells effects each type of its weapon (maybe even each bank?), so damage is higher there than represented.
LOL, I will agree that the Revelation is initially a pretty weak ship. I have to admit that I've never really understood Guidance very well. Clairvoyance is actually quite nice to have, and is handy late in the game when it is hard to get scouts into the back of empires. But the second and third levels of it don't add much value. Reverie is a surprising ability. Higher levels of it can almost make the Revelation invulnerable. Provoke Hysteria can be quite powerfull, especially combined with a few siege frigates.
I'd also encourage people to see my old comparison of Siege ships, and comments at the Cap Ship Abil sticky.
I love this idea though it might require an edit to the revelations info to state that in affects more than just populations.
I'm still hoping, but I doubt it will happen.
It occurred to me that the current version of Animosity might be a useful choice for conversion to the cruiser ability.. as an elegant solution to focus fire, rather than an exacerbation of it?
Then you could put Repulse on the Radiance... I like that.
That would still leave Guidance as a sub-par ability, though I'm not sure how it would work in its existing form with cruisers anyway..? How about altering it slightly to make a Revelation-based fleet work with Subjugators, another underused element of the Advent armoury?
The problem with any solution that involves switching cruiser and capital abilities is more likely to be the tech tree than the ship description, the picture would need to be changed, I'm not sure how easy that is.
Also, if a patch was going to switch abilities around at all, and I doubt that an official patch would ever be that involved with achieving improved gameplay, how about switching the charge ability on the Dunov with Flux Field.. then you could have Flux Field in three stages, which might make the Kol-Dunov combination far more viable and the Kol antimatter costs easier to bear? An improved Charge attack would then be the L6 ability.
Again, to patch the game properly so that all its elements are viable is effectively to change it. Its not difficult to do, 99% of it would be simple text edits, but asking multiplayer to adapt is another question entirely.
What about a reverse malice? What if you create something that propagates healing? I don't know if it would work, but if this is the case, then you could make Guidance (albeit with a huge overhaul) incredibly useful and work alongside the Subjugator very nicely.
While it is good to consider wilder changes, on reflection much can be achieved with only limited improvements to existing abilities. The more I consider capitals the more I am impressed by the revision to the Kortul. The ship works, it can tank, it has a good ultimate, it can hold its own against carriers. Its probably the capital thats been improved most by balance changes without it breaking the game, and I'd like it used as a model for further change.
That would mean no major alterations to our three candidates, Guidance, Provoke Hysteria and Animosity. Guidance I believe can be improved by having it apply to ultimates and also adding a moderate antimatter regeneration rate boost. Its an area effect so the boost should be cautious, but then again the Revelation is a poor ship. Provoke Hysteria is so rubbish compared to Drain Planet... how about upping the damage to 1.5/s and the population damage to 2%? It was never clear to me why it wouldn't damage the population rather more than the fortifications. Animosity might be useful in its current incarnation for drawing just one round of fire away, if it had another purpose as well. From the Kortul example I suggest that a % of incoming damage should also be converted into shield points, to help with tanking. Then it would also be useful when the Radiance was already under fire. Feed on their rage!
Of the other weak abilities...
It seems generally agreed that if Shield Restore could be self-applied, that might by itself be a sufficient buff.
I liked Zombies suggestion that the GRG should debuff the target, it fits the description of the weapon. The problem with Adaptive Forcefield it that it just isn't very good, especially the shield bypass reduction. How about 40%/65%/90%? Also 20%/35%/50% damage reduction and some shield regeneration like the Kortul example. After all the ability isn't a passive and the Kol hasn't any very useful weapons damage by itself until L6.
Incendiaries and Phase Missile Swarm are simple abilities that just need large and moderate damage increases respectively. It's a pity that the Missile Swarm can't be made to profit from bypass research.
It has been suggested that the Egg needs a further boost to its colonise ability. The problem with allowing Vasari an early finance boost from colonisation is that they already have one from scouts. Again the current ability is capable of improvement, why not make it 30% or 40%?
Subversion might be helped by a boost to the duration to 300/600/900 and effect to 100%/150%/200%.
There's a list of limited changes that might improve the weakest abilities, nothing radically new. For legal reasons I'd like to make it clear that one of the suggestions was originally made by Warlord Mike.
Just out of curiosity, would that be the suggestion to Clairvoyance?
As to the rest of your most recent post, those are some good points - maybe 20/35/50 construct boost would be acceptable for the Egg's colonize if the financial aspect is a bit much to ask.
Increasing the construction speed isn't a big benefit to begin with, especially when playing on fast/fastest game speed. If you actually watch a constructor, it takes a negligable amount of time to build a structure even without this boost, most of the time is actually spent traveling from one construction site to another. If you really want this ability to buff only construction speed, what you'd do is make it improve the move speed of constructors.
I still think it needs an economic edge, though, and build speed is insufficient. Yes, Vasari have their scouts, but they get that bonus whether they pick the economic Jarrasul or the military Skirantra. What I want is an economic incentive for picking the economic capital ship.
It was your suggestion on Guidance that I was referring to Warlord Mike, but Clairvoyance is another problem area and a further suggestion would be welcome. My major issue with Clairvoyance is that the third level does so little compared to the first... it is 50 antimatter not 70 and offers 150s duration rather than 90s, but is that valued at two extra points? If minefields are made viable scouts will be needed anyway, and it can't be made an excuse for a poor ability that another part of the game is broken.
Along the lines of the other proposed buffs to capitals to make them more durable, I suggest that Clairvoyance also allow a defensive bonus to the Revelation.. after all it has to be valuable to be able to see the command centres of enemy ships?
The Dunov is an excellent example of a ship that just needs its numbers adjusted to be made more effective. Shield Restore may have been made more frequent and less powerful to be more useful on frigates as well as capitals, but the opportunites for this sort of use in large scale engagements are limited. How about a buff beyond the typical shield values for frigates, as well as the self-heal option?
Magnetize must have seemed a lot more useful when there were half as many strikecraft in the game.. but if the carrier capitals get boosts to their strikecraft capacity, the antistrikecraft capitals need to be boosted as well? If the squadrons on carrier capitals were boosted 50% this needs a corresponding 50% boost?
EMP Charge must have seemed much better when there were less antimatter reserves in the game, but it would not make much difference to the vast reserves possessed by a starbase... If the numbers were raised EMP might become too much of a threat to fleets, so is there a possibility to make the drain a % of the maximum antimatter of the target? That might make the Dunov more useful for specialist anti-structure deployment... which seems a proper role for a support capital.
I just had a good idea for clairvoyance; what if it made the target planet take additional damage when bombarded? This would (finally) give the Revelation the siege role it was always supposed to have, while giving clairvoyance a unique secondary feature. This would make the Revelation perhaps the most interesting of siege capital ships since it could support a bombardment without even being present.
While I like the concept it might require the duration to be extended, as any planet that you were bombing would be already revealed to you... so to make it work you would have to enter the grav well afterwards and rush straight to the planet. It might lead to dubious gameplay where you would vacate a gravwell just in order to scout it for the subsequent bombardment bonus?
A defensive bonus to the ship itself need not be excluded by this... it's not unusual for capital ship abilities to be multi-functional, and sneaky siege ships might be expected to be able to avoid fire. It also makes sense for the Revelation to be the siege specialist, as it is the siege capital with a siege ultimate, though I suggest that the ultimate itself needs boosting as well.. I had suggested to boost it with a 50% longer duration, so that it caused 60% damage in all... however if the Claivoyance boost could stack with the ultimate that might be an alternative. My preferred option was to cause a huge allegiance shift like the Indifference Engine, but only if culture can be made to function properly.
Because of this change, you'd remove that limitation of the ability, so you can use it even if you can already see the gravity well. This might screw with the autocast a bit, but the autocast on this ability is already broken anyways so I don't really care if we break it further.
Improving the allegiance drop due to cultural supremacy is another good idea, though possibly too suble since culture is already rarely used.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
