INTRODUCTION
In a recent post, a person on these forums complained that he did not like CivIV because it was “simplistic” – to which Brad replied that this person would probably dislike Elemental as well.
I am going to try to argue that simplicity or complexity are not the (only key primary) elements which determine a TBS’s strategic depth and fun. On the contrary.
POSTULATION: Axiom A
I would like to postulate an axiom on TBS fun, let us call it Axiom A. I will claim that one (primary, key) element that no TBS may lack without becoming boring is this: A (consistent) stream of strategically relevant and ambivalent (or better: polyvalent) choices. By ambivalent I mean a choice about whose outcomes there should be room for discussion; a choice which allows for various normative interpretations. The diametric opposite of an ambivalent choice would be a no-brainer. By consistent flow I mean that there should not be many turns in which the player need not rethink a strategy.
By way of demonstration, let me return to Civilization IV mentioned above. I did not find CivIV simplistic; I found it unexciting after the first three playthroughs because I did not feel strategically challenged once midgame started. I did not have a plethora of strategically relevant choices; I was “merely” optimizing strategic advantages by means of tactics, always coming closer to my goal. I was rarely surprised. There were many turns during which I found nothing interesting or challenging to do. In addition to the fact that many cities seemed impersonal (because in any city you may only have one type of improvement, e.g. only one temple, forge, etc.) and hence interchangeable, I found most turns to be interchangeable as well.
This is one of the reasons I have de-installed GalCiv2. I love the idea of the game, but disliked its slow plodding. While I did not have to micromanage, and was pleased by this fact, I found myself nevertheless hitting “return” for turn after turn; this was neither challenging nor fun.
CONSIDER CHESS.
Consider chess for a moment. Chess has proven itself over the centuries as a benchmark of classic TBS success. (Please note that I will not be arguing that Elemental should resemble chess in many ways.) One of the reasons chess is considered a “good” game, in my opinion, is that it fulfils what I called Axiom A above: There is almost no turn in a well-balanced chess match (that is, when two players of halfway similar skills are paired) by which a player is not challenged to think about the repercussions of moves many turns in the future. Players are required to think about moves and their counters. This is because each move in chess is polyvalent. Some moves, are of course, no-brainers in the sense that these would be “stupid” moves; these moves are not polyvalent. The fact that chess is a good game is also manifested by the fact that some moves can be called “good moves” – a novel, surprising, challenging move.
Yet chess has simple rules. Chess is not bogged down in minutae, yet still challenging.
The fact that chess has simple rules is also a huge factor in making it relatively easy to program AI for it. Simple chess programs can beat the vast majority of chess players, and top-of-the-line chess programs cannot be beat by anyone but the very best human players in the world.
But it is simple to learn (and cheap to make or create a chess board and pieces). It is simple to learn, but very very difficult to master.
RULE R: EASY TO LEARN, HARD TO MASTER
Of course, chess is not for everyone. Not for me, for example; I play about only 10 games a year. I prefer more complicated computer TBS’s, like what I hope Elemental will become. But I think we can learn a lesson from chess, and from other very exciting computer TBS games which have borrowed something of chess’s rule of success: Easy to learn, hard to master. (Another game that fits this category is a niche product called Star Chamber, whose bafflingly simple rules have created an almost unthinkingly complex ground for consistent strategic challenge: there is no turn in SC by which one really need not (re-)think strategically. Star Chamber is, however, hampered by two huge shortcomings: The first, it is a TCG (trading card game), an unsavoury genre; And second, it has no single-player mode, it is multiplayer only. Additionally, it is not epic; it can only uphold its strategic tension for 30 turns.)
I think CivIV failed here; CivIV is not terribly easy to learn; but once you have learned it, it appears to me that mastering it is not far off. It does not offer a consistent strategic challenge. I also felt that GalCiv2 is in the same boat.
For this reason, I appeal to us all to forsake the flashy appearance of “more is better”. Having “more” might not necessarily increase our options for a steady flow of true polyvalent strategic choices. Remember GalCiv2: There were limitless amounts of ships to be made, but in reality, we all ended up making slightly different flavors of the same thing. That was indeed fun for the first 5 playthroughs, but it lacked depth despite complexity.
CONCRETE SUGGESTIONS
So what does that mean?
More counters. I am wary that the path that unit construction and combat might go is not undercomplex, but rather without counters. If the main differences between units will be primarily arithmetic or superficial – that is, one unit can be “better” than another unit because it can do more damage, have better defense, or be faster – then units will be easily quantifiably better, but not different. This will be the exact opposite of chess. CivIV, as do most other TBS games, worked around this problem by having built-in counters coming from a system of “classes” and “types”, e.g. a “pikeman” was both a melee unit (class) and a spear unit (anti-horse unit type); spears are more efficient (are counters) to horse; maces (or whatever) are counters to spears; archers (or whatever) are counters to maces. Other TBSs follow suit. Chess is very, very similar in this respect: Each type of unit is as different from the other as it can get given the simplistic ruleset.
I see the danger of Elemental’s “open” unit-building system and clear-cut combat system (from what has been hinted at so far) to run counter to this. If – simplified – units can be better, but not different, then our strategic choices will be vastly limited, because we will be, in essence, merely optimizing our arithmetic advantages. Our strategic military choices will be limited to finding ways of getting “more”. There will be fewer military surprises, and fewer options to make a “good move” militarily.
Hence: Employ types. If not types of damage (e.g. piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) then types of attacks (which I have called “maneuvers” elsewhere) or classes of units (e.g. flag a unit as “is-a-shield-using-unit” with rules for shields or “is-a-riposte-using-melee-unit” with rules for this particular offensive or defensive maneuver). Employ type- or class-like differences to enable strategic counters. Various weapon, armor, or even unit types should be "good" in situations, not (primarily) "good overall".
I am suggesting this now because Brad, in his recent post on “Spells and Magic”, claimed that certain things, if decided early enough, are easier to change before vast quantities of resources have been devoted to it.
It doesn’t have to be complex, and certainly not complex for complexity’s sake. But it should increase the possibility of a steady and continuous stream (over and during as many turns as possible, well into the end game) of strategically polyvalent choices.
Your input and feedback are welcome. Thank you in advance.
The talent for chess is the same as the talent for a game such as Starcraft or a TBS. It is the ability to look forward into the future and see possible outcomes and how they change based on your actions. The mechanics of the games may be different, but the fundamental aspect of strategy is the same. Complex choices doesn't require complex mechanics.
This might be true with regard to chess, but it is not with regard to a fantasy TBS. Complexity can add a lot to the depth of the game[play], if the complex elements get implemented properly.
In my previous post, I gave at least two examples, perhaps you could take a look at them.
Additionally, the point of my post was to differentiate between complexity and depth. I believe I gave examples for all of these.
Here is one really compelling reason not yet listed why Elemental should attempt to be as deep as possible while being as simple as possible. (Reasons given before include: Occam's Razor, elegance in coding, etc. I will not go into those.) One reason why Elemental should be in the quadrant "Deep" but also in the quadrant "Simple" is that, unlike Dominions 3, this should have good AI and be aimed at a SP audience. Dominions 3 has MISERABLE AI for a number of reasons, but at least one of those reasons is that it is incredibly complex. It is that much harder to write good AI for it. On the other hand, consider chess, like I did in my original post: Chess is also an excellent SP game, because its rules are so simple that it allows for excellent AI. (I do not know anyone personally who can beat decent chess AI; there are probably less than 50 people alive who can beat top-notch chess AI.) This is an actual constraint.
Additionally, all the complexity bogs Dominions 3 down greatly, and it suffers from huge LGT.
While much of this might be aesthetic (matters of taste), I think that our constructive criticism here is important.
It reminds me of the rule from Sid Meier : "Simple systems that interact in interesting ways"
A bit of theory : If we have a game with simple rules, then the game can only be deep if thoses rules allows for different things. A a rule R can only let you do 1 thing and Rule S let you do 1 thing too, then you can only do 2 things with those 2 rules.
But add synergies, and you get 3 actions with 2 rules (R, S and R+S)
Example ? Workshops let you build siege weapons. Forges let you build weapons. A forge AND a forge in a town would let you build different ammo for your siege weapon (iron boulders that explodes on contact : less damage to walls, but more to defenders). But if you have a farm and a workshop ? You can then build oiled boulders that stick to the walls and start fires. A workshop, a forge and a farm ? You can research the oiled iron boulder : it explodes in tiny sticky fire boulders that set everything on fire and greatly damage defenders.
Like I said before, we'll have to disagree. You seem to think that TBS is some special case in strategy games where depth only comes from complexity, and I don't feel that way.
Wrong. You've missed the point it seems, but ah well. I really liked AoW II. for example, and it is a simple game basically.
The best counters aren't weapon types, as mentioned above.
One of my favorite systems is skirmish and sheild wall formation. With some extra training a unit type can change their formation either coming closer together and slowing down or spreading out and speeding up. Spread out units would have a increased chance to dodge arrows. Tight formation would have lower speed and increased defense, a charge bonus due to tight ranks works too.
Unit types you created with skirmish would naturally be good at chasing down archers while tight formations could protect themselves somewhat but would never catch them. This way a unit's training and weapons effects its role in combat.
Another good tool is weight. Heavier armor and weapons would weigh down a unit making it move slower. This creates roles for different armor types and cavalry who would be able to move in the heaviest armor but not as fast as light cavalry.
Oh, and flanking is always good for strategic depth, gives a good reason for stealth units
Onomastikon - Can I ask if anyone here has tried Star Chamber?
Yes, very fun and strategic game. The best implementation of a card game and board game in my opinion.
Tormy- This "make it simple, but it should have depth" talk is getting a bit annoying nowadays. May I ask that what is the problem with complexity? I understand that complex games ain't very popular amongst the casual players, but it's a bad thing if a game has incredible depth + it's complex as well? In my book that is a good thing, but I am not a casual, that is true as well.
Well since my post started a lot of the talk about simple with depth > complex with depth, I’ll take a shot at answering your question. I will say that I have played some very complex games in my time (lookup magic realm board game) if you want to see some super complexity. I’m not adverse to complexity, and used to look for it. However, as I’ve gotten older I’ve really grown to appreciate games that provide a challenging experience and have elegant mechanics. When I brought up DF as an example, I played it for a couple weeks. And it wasn’t the complexity that made me quit, it was the busy work. I just don’t have the time or will to micromanage for hours on end. I know there is payoff from this type of game and I can see the appeal but it isn’t enough return for me.
Now I look for games that have lots of interesting decisions but that have a fairly simple framework to work within. This way I can have challenging, fun, competitive gameplay without all the overhead. So I am willing to compromise some depth to get simplicity.
Other reasons I want simplicity in a computer game is to give AI a shot at being competitive. I enjoy multiplayer at times, but most my gaming is solo. So a game without a good AI to give me a challenge isn’t worth my time. And from my experience, the more complicated the game mechanics the weaker the AI.
Lastly, I will say my biggest problem with complexity is that it is time consuming. Having a family and a demanding job limits my free time to make forum posts and play gamesL So I’m looking for a game that most my time is spent making interesting decisions, not micromanaging a ton of not so interesting decisions.
Hopefully you can at least understand this gamers perspective
An optimal solution for the player, npot necessarily the devs , would be game detail/realism level scales the player can choose.
1. Simple- Age of Wonders level non combat mechanics, almost no Micromanagement, ministers handle most duties (like the ones from Space Empires series)
2. Medium, Civilization 4 level non combat mechanics
3. COmplex, this would have the most options to run your kingdom/empire at a Europa Universalis/Victoria/Hearts of Iron or greater level.
Additionally, ministers could be selected by the player to run any aspect of their Empire like in the Space Empires series to customize it as you choose.
Does Elemental have ministers?
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