I'm coming back to SINs after a long hiatus of about 8-9 months (right after Entrenchment came out) and I just catching up on the new changes. (I'd appreciate any help on my other post)
But 1 thing I wanted to know are stationary turrets, non-Vasari Starbases, and mines still completely useless or not viable? I mainly play multiplayer and I remember all these things were almost completely useless and indeed there was almost zero reason to not go 100% fleet as opposed to like 70% fleet 30% defenses.
Only the repair platform was a good stationary defense structure I remember back in the day because carrier spammers could just hold back near the end of the grav well and kill even Starbases because none of the stationary turrets or even starbases had flak built into them.
Mines seem to be never useful and a waste of money. It didn't help that they tend to explode 3-4 seconds AFTER a ship flew over it when its long gone.
Did any of the patches buff these assets to make them viable in multiplayer?
Turrets have always been useful to protect structures--if strategically placed. They are cheap, they have some hitpoints, they have some firepower, and they are annoying. They are great for protecting military labs, frigate factories, etc. They won't hold back a large fleet but they are good early game against a rush. Starbases were pretty much described in the previous thread. I would say that a bare starbase isn't all that worthwhile but a fully upgraded starbase is very formidable, espeically if it is backed up with support structures and perhaps anti-bomber stuff.
Mines, like turrets, are useful if placed strategically. However, they may cause lag in the game and for that reason should probably be frowned upon.
The key to mines, turrets, and starbases is "placed strategically". Of course, one itty bitty structure isn't going to hold off a large fleet and will be useless against it.
An Advent or Tec starbase vs an vasari starbase, you will always lose, however if they have turrents around the starbase, they can easily hold of an vasair starbase. dont forget repairs.
Yes but anyone really use Gauss Defense Turrets or Defense Hangers in their multiplayer games? Ever?
Come on, I bet no one is actually willing to admit "no, not really..." in MP
Actually since scout rushing and Vasari SB rushes became so popular, turrets are used much more often in MP than they used to be.
My Orkulus rushes have been stopped cold by well placed turrets and hangars, plus Entrenchment has some nice upgrades for them you can purchase as well.
If turrets and hangers all had built in flaks they would be much more better because they all die so easily to SC spam since the turrets can't actually shoot at the carriers parked at the edge of the grav well.
The short answer is yes.
Advent hangers have an abiltiy to project shields to surrounding structures. This also provides the benefit of shield mitigation to structures reducing the damage they receive. Advent turrents have the Synergy ability which amplifies the damage and shields of nearby platforms.
Vasari hangers have the abiltiy to Phasic Trap fighters and bombers. Most people I see don't deploy vasari fighters in hangers to conserve the AM for phasic trap. Vasari turrents have the ability disrupter nanites which essentially stops hull and shield regeneration.
I don't care for the TEC hanger as much except in a last ditch entrenchment effort to add additional fighters. Same with turrent except maybe to help clear planets a little quicker.
PJI are also used in MP and require some form of defense including hangers/turrents/sb and repair bays to be successful.
Just dropping static defenses on every planet is not very useful and I do see a lot of newer players in sins doing the ring of turrent, hanger, turrent, hanger, turrent, hanger, etc around useless terran worlds.
TEC hangars have a flak turret upgrade. Their turrets have extra weapons upgrades (and one for a long range weapon). Advent hangars give all structures in the area shields, and their turrets can get a sharp increase in damage. Vasari hangars can trap SC in phase space for a period of time, cutting down enemy SC numbers and making them easier for the hangars SC to manage and vasari turrets can upgrade to disable passive regeneration on anything they hit. Hangars combined with repair bays, and a few flaks and carriers for extra firepower can actually do a pretty good job at fending off enemy SC. SBs can prevent loss of planet from bombardment, forcing a player to try and take out the SB. That makes static defenses much more valuable as a player can;t just circumvent them all the time. Eventually they'll have to try and take them out.
Thats good news for people in the Suicide spot (surrounded by 2 enemies on either side), as it can allow a player to defend ones Hw against 2 or more players attacking at the same time.
I frequently use gauss cannons as TEC. The thing is, Advent illuminators do not outrange gauss turrets once you have their range upgrade, hence the Advent actually has to fight these things rather than just shooting them from outside retaliation range. As well, they provide a good nest for you to hide those fragile LRM's against opponents like Vasari. Combined with repair bays and it's actually a pretty solid defense. The other turrets, however, have significant range issues and just aren't worth the cost as anything other than anti-harass.
Minefields are too easy to go around. They can be great delays, but against someone who looks before they leap, they don't do that much.
Does the TEC Starbase have that upgrade where it prevents the planet from being destroyed thru bombardment until the Starbase is taken out itself?
So only the TEC turrets are actually the most useful one due to the large number of upgrades they get in the defense tree.
All starbases have the planet protection upgrade. As for the turrets, its difficult to say which is better, but the TEC turret can get two upgrades where as the others only get one on the defense tree, though the second upgrade, meson bolt (long range weapon) is way up the tech tree at tier 5 or 6 I believe.
For turrets, it's clearly TEC > Vasari > Advent.
The kicker for TEC is that they have a range upgrade. Advent does as well, but it comes so late in the tech tree that you almost never have the prerequisites for it, much less are able to shell out the cash. Vasari have that wonderful ability that lets you stop regeneration. Hit a support cruiser or (joy) a capital ship with ONE SHOT and it's effectively incapacitated. Of course, they have to get in range, and that's the difficulty. The Advent ones are just too easy to avoid and don't offer anything special. They need help.
Darvin im pretty sure the beam range upgrade is only 1 tier higher. Additionally the prereqs for that tech increase the firepower of the most used advent units and caps, and not to mention the turrets themselves. Synergy can grant turrets up to 50% more firepower AND up to 1000 extra shields (750 more with hangars shield bestowal). So with 1 upgrade you can have turrets that deal 30 damage (instead of 20), have 1000 shields (which take mitigation of course), where as with TEC you need 2 upgrades to get the first weapon (burst rockets, short ranged) of which the firepower isnt listed on the info card (neither is meson bolt). Not saying that the TEC turrets are weaklings, but I don't think things are as clear as you do.
Uh... no. The TEC is a 3-lab technology, the Advent is a 7-lab technology, they're 4 labs apart. But I'm talking about prerequisites, not just labs.
The TEC turret range increase requires 1 point in rate of fire increase, a level 1 tech. That's not a big price to pay. The Advent range increase requires you to complete the beam damage technology line, which requires two level 3, two level 4, and two level 6 technologies. This is exorbitantly expensive, along the lines of three or four capital ships. You almost never will have all these techs researched, and it's cheaper just to put up a starbase which has long range to begin with.
Synergy and structure shields are all well and good, but the underlying problem is that the enemy can just attack them from outside of retaliation range, and since Advent long range frigates have the shortest range of all varieties, this will force you to leave your little defensive hole. TEC and Vasari can use their superior range to stay safely inside turret protection while they fire back. Illuminators, for all their redeeming qualities, cannot do this since their range isn't actually all that long.
*I gave Darvin3 Karma because he is awesome.
What would you say is the ideal location and time to build some turrets? At choke-point worlds late-early game when you already have 3-5 worlds? Are they worth building in late-game? (even if you researched every single defense research) (I usually play TEC, sometimes Vasari)
I tend to create something like a Fortress world defensive strategy. Where I build up the 1-2 chokepoint worlds with turrets, a SB, 2-3 repair platforms, and 2-3 frigate factories. Basically a fleet Headquarters on world the enemy would have to get past in order to conquer more of my planets.
Is this effective? Is this what you guys do? What do we do if the enemy just jumps in and then jumps to my planet behind my fortress world (I guess phase stabilizers?)
Well, if you have the larger economy, it can work. Let's say they have the superior military but you have twice as many planets (though not terribly developed yet). In the long run, this will result in you being able to crush him beneath your heel. Sure, he will reciprocate any entrenching effort after he realizes he can't get through your defenses, but by the time you are ready to attack, no force he could possible muster could stand against what you will unleash.
So, basically, if you are going to get slaughtered and are alright with boxing yourself off with the planets you already have (at least on that front) then sure. Do it. You can always attack him later by giving yourself time to build up an actual force. For instance, I generally have the lowest fleet value for the longest time, but I am number one in colonization by a longshot. This leaves me with a massive income boost and allows me to stomp them later, and on my schedule, not theirs.
Now, if you have the military advantage, then don't waste time and lose momentum by entrenching. But the way I play, it is beneficial to get an Orky up along with a few tactical structures escorted by a small fleet until I am ready to slam into the enemy with everything I've got.
Im talking about meson bolt, not the 12% range boost of highly conductive rails (tier 3) that youre talking about, Meson Bolt is tier 6. Precision beam focus is tier 7. TEC do not have techs to increase the power of the Gauss Turret, they have techs that give them additional weapons (weapons that only modders know the dmg amounts of so its a big ? to me). The 6 techs that are prereqs to Precision beam focus upgrades INCREASE the power of their turrets, Cap ships, illuminators and bombers. Its something that most Advent players are getting anyways. What im saying is at the point a TEC turret is fully upgraded(tier6), an Advent turret is not far off, already has shields and shield mitigation(65% dmg reduction ftw!?), 30% upgraded firepower plus and additional 50% ontop of that. Oh and the extreme range on Advent starbases is their last weapons upgrade which ends up costing around the same amount to get (sb tech+sb+deploy+upgrade 1+ upgrade 2) as getting the 6 prereqs to precision beam focus, but the prereqs give more utility as they increase the power of Advent Units as well. And 3 or 4 cap ships? try 2 and some change.
ITs true that illuminators have crappy range, but they are the most powerful of the lrms and tear their counterparts to shreds. Lets also not forget that Advent is the only race that can actually PUSH enemy fleets into their defenses. So yeah theyre defenses may not have the best range, but that doesnt matter much when you can just shove the entire enemy fleet at your defensive cluster.Ive done it many times before with wonderful results.
Again not saying TEC turrets suck, just saying that I dont think its as clear as you do. TEC turrets get some range and a little extra firepower, Advent turrets get some shields and a lot of extra firepower. Vasari turrets get disabled regen and shield bypass. Seem like a pretty even keel to me.
The Info card tells you what the damage is if you look at the ablilites when you click on the turrent. Off the top of my head I think its 60 for missles and 150 for bolt.
.... no it doesnt show on mine
just the gauss cannon, 21 dmg
maybe i got a bug.. or somethin
but if thats the case then dayum, they do more dmg then an sb if theyre dishing out 200.
Checked the stats in the file and ur right. Cept its 70 (against 4 targets) for burst rockets and 175 (+-3 armor) for meson bolt. For a total of (upgrades maxed) 268. Thats around the same as a starbase with 1 weapons upgrade. Yow. That certainly makes those turrets far superior to either of the other races. Certainly the damage output that puts them above the rest, not their range. Wonder why they do so much more damage than the others could even dream of.
Did you hover over the icons on the bottom right for the individual upgrades? Usually they have autocast on them thats where Ive seen the damage before.
yeah, i cant figure out why they dont show there. i better send an email over to tech support, maybe ive messed something in the files
Research them first?
Turrets are really difficult to use well. Even if they do succeed in bolstering the defense of the target planet, sometimes they don't do it well enough to merit their cost. A smart enemy will just ignore or go around a turret, so you either need to use this to your tactical advantage or force him to engage that turret. This is the big challenge of effective turret deployment.
I mostly use turrets in the early game to provide breathing space. Sometimes I need a place of refuge, somewhere that my fleet can retreat to and the enemy wouldn't dare to attack them. A starbase with repair bays will definitely do this, but that's too expensive. A formation of turrets around repair bays is a much cheaper alternative. This gives me a place to regroup. Even if the enemy can bombard the planet (as is often the case) I now have time to muster my forces and push him out. By putting long range units and flaks inside the formation, I can often continue to fight at a distance successfully.
The key here is the synergy between turret and fleet. The turrets give you strategic control over an area of space (area is proportional to radius squared... in other words, a range upgrade for turrets exponentially increases the area they can protect). If the enemy enters that protected space, they start taking excessive damage. Now you combine this with your mobile fleet of long range units, attacking the enemy form inside your protected zone where he cannot pursue.
If you already have a starbase, those turrets are probably superfluous. If he's packing enough firepower to bring down the starbase, he's definitely packing the firepower to bring down the turrets. I'd either save the money and buy fewer tactical upgrades on the planet, or spend them on additional repair bays (or as Vasari phase stabilizers are a good choice). This is still an effectively strategy; late game, it's ALL about controlling choke points and having powerful starbases on them.
Now, that said, the whole point of a fortress like this is so that your fleet can attack aggressively. With this kind of fortress, you know that if things get antsy you have a powerful stronghold you can fall back to.
Yeah, I almost never get Meson Bolt. Too many labs. I've only gotten it once in multiplayer, and that was when I had four asteroids (all front-line... that random map was seriously fun) all of which were protected by turret farms.
Rate of fire upgrade. They're specific to the gauss cannon (no other units) but they're very inexpensive. I rarely get more than the first level (required for range upgrade) but when I'm turret farming I max this out.
But you almost never max it out; if you do it's extremely late in the game.
You're missing the point; it's not about tech levels at all, it's about how much you have to invest for the techs you want. My whole point is that range upgrades are the most important upgrades for your turrets. TEC can max this out easily in the early game. Advent cannot max it out until late game. That is why TEC turrets are awesome and why Advent turrets are not.
Actually, the basic starbase attack already has long range properties. If you max out the beam range upgrades, turrets only begin to match short-range starbase attacks. Secondly, you're comparing the cost of actually building a virtually impregnable early game defense with researching the prerequisite of a technology that will make turrets a viable defense structure.
No, I just ran the math and it turns out the numbers I threw off the top of my head were right. To buy all six beam damage upgrades will run you about 6700 credits and 3000 metal/crystal. Doing a standard resource to credit conversion, this is about 20k credits. A capital ship costs about 6k credits after resource to credit conversion, and therefor it comes out to three and some change. My guess is that you're ignoring the fact that high level technologies have exorbitant metal and crystal costs, and were just looking at credit costs, which is an invalid comparison.
Anyways, my fundamental point: bloody expensive. Can't do it until the late game.
If you have the forces to completely maul the enemy, what are you doing trying to build a defensive nest? If you're on the offensive, don't waste cash on immobile defenses. If you're on the defensive and need to hold ground, you can't use illums as recklessly as you otherwise might.
To repeat what I said in that buried post: area is proportional to radius squared. A range upgrade has grants exponential improvement to the area protected by a turret. This is why range upgrades are by far the best kind for turrets. I only turret farm as TEC, and even then only when I have an Akkan. The reason is that turrets require stacked range bonus to be effective. I occasionally build turrets as Vasari and hope to get off a shot on a capital ship or support cruiser. I only build turrets as Advent when clearing militia, never as a serious defense.
Mines are very usefull, especially vasari ones.
^ How? Darvin just told us that mines are pretty useless against human players who actually watch where they are going.
On Turret farming, what number is the best for TEC turrets? 3-4? or less? also what is the optimal setup for them? wide spaced apart or bunched up close by the repair platforms?
Thou shalt not question the ability to use mines offensively to Pawelo.
At any rate, the point is, very few have mastered the technique of OMining. OMining is the usage of mines to do your bidding. Vasari can for example use them as PJI's in neutral or enemy gravity wells. They can also send in 10-15 Ruiners to flood your ranks with emines. Unless you have an army of flaks, good luck killing them all before your fleet spontaneously pops. Against a battleball, this can be particularly devastating due to the close proximity of enemy ships. You will however be forced to send in far more ships than you think you need as Illuminators will shred Ruiners with side beams. The result is still a massive amount of damage dealt to your opponent that can wipe out a huge chunk of his health.
The point is, most people can't use them effectively, but rumor has it that Pawelo happens to be one of the elect.
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