Alright, I just got done playing 1v1 against an advent player. After a few skirmishes it ended up being his prog and 2 halc's vrs my akan, 2 sovas, and 1 LEVEL SIX DUNOV. I was basically unapproachable till he massed bombers illums and guardians and just split through my fleet with repulse and took out one cap at a time starting with my akan. I had bots, kodiaks and fighters up the ying yang including a few cielos, but that means nothing when there on either side of each other.
I'm extremely frustrated, i was seconds from armistice cooling off and being available again. Which btw, was the only thing that was preventing him from repulsing me into the ground.
I feel I am getting to where I can stand a chance against a skilled advent player. I had no trade going, I was using embargo and just tearing up his trade routes for money. I was sending bombers to each of his planet as my main fleet was closing in on his own. It was just a matter of time. Then he pulls out 10 gaurdians and 30 or so bombers and illums and one by one, my caps go down.
My question: how the hell do you stop gaurdians from using repulse? I had my dunov shooting emp's but it was simply too far away because of repulse. I couldnt even get to my akan with the dunov to put up a shield. I tried sabotage reactors but they couldnt reach them either. I just find this scenario absolutely rediculous. At the closing I had the top military, research and economy. I never have that against late advent, ever! Even after out producing, out maneuvering, and out gunning him, he's still able to win just cuz of one ability.
Next time I plan on using bombers to take them out, but if theres anything else to put an end to such a stupid magic trick please tell me.
thank you
one reason why I dont like the Advent, their "godly abilities" prevent you from actually keeping the game balanced.
While Advent is my favorite race, I actually wouldn't mind repulse being removed altogether. If you have to rely on it to win, you are probably not the better player. If it matters, I only tend to use repulse for defensive purposes, like pushing enemy forces out of the way so my other forces can retreat.
You know, if you see just that subject line in the Christmas season, people might take it completely the wrong way.
I have to agree. I LOVE playing Advent, but have always felt they seemed a bit too strong. And I have never used Repulse. I researched it once (my first ever game) but never used it. I'd have no problem if it was removed, though I'm sure many other skilled Advent players would object, or at least want it replaced with something else. I cringe every time I read an Advent bashing thread because I know Repulse will be brought up.
-Gil102
The only real viable counter to Advent with TEC are the Colbolt's Sabatoge Reacter ability. It has enough range to disable Repulse. In addition, massed SC are usable against Guardians, but their damage multipliers are bad against them (75% to Heavy).
Repulse is the problem. IMO, it's fundamentally flawed. Personally, I'd like to see the Revelation lose its "guidance" ability and have Repulse replace it. It'd be far more balanced as a capital ship ability.
Once bugged illuminators are dealt with, and scouts hopefully take a minor nerf, repulse will be the only major outsanding issue for Advent.
I agree with Darvin3 100%
The problem with giving Repulse to the Revelation is that an Advent player could just build a Revelation as his starting cap, tech Repulse, and there's virtually no options to counter that except for mass Bombers or possibly LRFs (And Bombers aren't until tech 3, or Carrier caps). I'd rather have Repulse trashed and replaced with some other ability.
First of all, a level 1 cap doesn't have enough antimatter to repulse constantly. To the contrary, chances are I'll be able to easily sit out your early game firepower and wait for repulse to expire. This is one of the reasons why I think it'd be balanced as a capital ship ability; you have only so much antimatter on one cap before you run dry, and then repulse is gone. This is most true early game on low level caps.
Secondly, to put it to good use you'd need either LRF or carriers to have something that can strike from the safety of repulse. This means at least two labs, probably three, for the Advent player. In other words, a TEC or Vasari opponent has ample opportunity to actually get their own counter-units, and has probably seen that you have a Revelation and is getting ready to counter it. To be honest, I think a Halcyon would still be the more dangerous rusher here.
I too like this idea, though level 3 repulse would have to be better than it is now. Still, I doubt I would build the revelation very much, but it would help. The guardian should still get some kind of replacement ability, maybe one that disables abilities but increases shield restore rate?
Simple thing: Repulse 1: pushes away frigates for 15 seconds.
Repulse 2: pushes away frigates and capships for 20 seconds.
Repulse 3: same thing, but costs less antimatter.
(If a "push" also affects capships because of program code, then it should start with 12 seconds).
The "repulse" of strikecraft is a Halcyon's task! So two lvl 6 Halcys and two lvl 6 Revelations would be quite a defensive core. Still reachable by LRM though, and that is where Vasari come into play...
The details can always be fine-tuned.
I thought the same thing about the new Adept Drone Anima; an improvement to be sure, but I didn't see it replacing TK push and energy amplification in a general case. Turned out to be totally wrong (pleasantly surprised, I should add). There's no question that putting Repulse on the Revelation would immediately give it an angle as a core capital ship for the Advent faction.
From what it looks like Repulse is here to stay. I'd rather have an ability to beat repulse than just take it out. If sabotage reactor truly is the only counter, thats retarded. I had 20 cobalts running towards them and the illums just shot them down. As I understand bombers are anti-heavy, so we will see how effective they are tomorrow morning.
At least we know why the TEC exiled these freaks....seriously. Death to the Unity.
They're anti-very-heavy, not anti-heavy. Common confusion, they're really no better than fighters against guardians.
On the subject of repulse, how about changing it from an AoE to a single target ability that really knocks a ship across the grav well. Won't stop a fleet but will break it up to an extent reducing incoming damage.
The Halycon is also really too strong, (all the carrier caps have become disproportionately too strong leading to spamming). All the whining about carrier caps not having enough squadrons was taken too seriously, now they have so many squadrons they are often a better deal than carriers, this is epescially true of the halycon (6! of the best squadrons in the game and a mere level 3!, by level 10 it's an absurd 11 squadrons). But what really makes the Halycon too good is telekinetic push, you can't counter the swarms of bombers coming from the 3-4 halycons that get spammed against you if your fighters all get slapped out of existence. Add the best damage increasing aura in the game and you have a cap that excels far past the others.
I disagree about the base squadrons, I think 3 is a good number. The Halycon's max 11 squadrons is far more of a problem however. I think an increase to the strikecraft rate would have been a better ability, but that's just me. Telekenetic push could use a mild nerf, or a max squadron limit.
That's actually the best solution I think that I've ever heard on the subject. But have fun trying to take away the rattle from all the babies... the sounds of crying will rise to the stars themselves.
-Itharus
/signed
If you're going to change something on the Halcyon, this is what you'd change.
I do agree that the carrier capital ships were probably over-buffed. I was against the buff, myself, but in hindsight I actually do think that two squads was too few. I think the solution is to buff the other caps up to the level of the carriers, not to knock them down. Maybe increase the number of guns on the battleships, maybe given support and siege cruisers something special (colony caps are fine, IMO), and we're in business
Actually, I think repulse is one of those things that everyone knows is just too good
You basically have to swat the fly long before its bugging you for you to avoid repulse.
The problem is in the design.The counter to repulse gaurds the counter that counters repulse.Main fleets are lrf so lf having the counter ability is dumb.They can never stand a chance to get close.One solution is to bring back carriers so that scouts lrf and repulse arent an issue anymore.Repulse was alot more strategic when carriers are backbone as is now its just an exploit.Carriers were always dealabe with lf and cap ship abilities.
I'd like the replay from the OP if there is one, it sounds intriguing.
The balance problems with Advent are far more serious than only bugged Illuminators, scouts and Repulse. The only solution may be to nerf the entire faction so hard that only a few will play them- then we'll almost be there. The Disciple has a decided advantage against the Cobalt, but the advantage against the Skirmisher is obscene, and won't be countered by a minor increase in Skirmisher dps. Shield Restore on the colony cap is another advantage to the Advent first-tier units, TEC have no mobile area cap repair, and the Skirantra won't improve your expansion. The Advent have the best flak as well- why? There was a time when Animosity-Malice-Vengeance style combos were deemed powerful, but at least these took some skill, and a variation of cap ships. We can only wish for some of the old Advent superiorities to reemerge- as it is, Advent are an almost entirely skill-free faction, so that it is not clear how strong they have become.
Illuminators need to be nerfed as well as debugged, this was apparent before the crap 'balance patch' which has ruined the online game for two months. If they are not hotfixed before the next patch, and then there is no nerf, it'll just be back to the old Illuminator spam, supposedly dealt with by an obscure range adjustment to Kodiaks. Have anyone's Kodiaks suddenly become more effective?
What is a 'slight' nerf to seekers? Is it really proposed that one of the Advent units should not be the most cost-effective combat unit of its class? A slight nerf will have no effect, as the unit is only used to counter LRF, and enhance the Advent LF and LRF superiority. If seekers were nerfed to Navigator levels, with 2 supply, they'd still be effective in their role.
That Repulse needs yet a further nerf shouldn't be surprising. Guardians are hard to kill, unlike subverters which also have a hard counter to the units that supposedly counter them. Also, Guardians affect caps! The solution was to nerf Repulse by nerfing the ship itself, by limiting the area affected to a thin cone, so that they took skill to employ properly and by excluding caps.
I'm tired of Advent players, I hope you can beat them. At least 1v1 isn't an Advent smurf/rushfest like all the other ICO games. Can the other factions even rush any more?
Don't encourage Advent bias- don't play Quickstart.
It isn't a rushfest, but 1v1 your opponent will still choose advent 90% of the time. I know because I have quit playing in the larger games for my own personal reasons, and pretty much do 1v1.
To give you a taste of the dilemna I faced in my last game, the game starts. Because I am still paranoid about having 2 halcyons show up early game loaded with bombers, I built 2 Sovas, dropped 2 civ labs, then started scouting and expanding.
I didn't start building any fleet right away, because in my opinion that's the kiss of death against advent. You have to see what HE's building first. I mean you oepn with a ton of lf, illums will come your way. You go lrm, you're gonna get hit with seekers, on and on. So I built production facilities, but otherwise waited to see what he was gonna come with.
Much to my chagrin, he came with... nothing! Then it became clear to me that his plan was indeed to wait for me to commit to a fleet, and then he'd react. Meanwhile, he would eco to the max, and start harassing my neutrals and asteroids with seeker/disciple attacks all over the map. If I came with nothing, he'd eventually tech to a late game advent. Time was on his side.
So once I discovered his plan, I moused over the eco. I was #2, even though I had chosen tec, expanded in two directions simultaneously, had not teched or built fleet, and had gotten trade ports established as soon as I reasonably could, with a 6 or 7 planet trade chain. So I sent him a message saying "Uhhh... it appears that I'm #2 in eco, even though I wasted no time in establishing it. You seem to have the strategic win already, if nothing else. GG." To which he responded "gg" and the game was over.
In checking the stats after the game, his credits per second were either double or triple mine (can't remember which). I said to myself "Jesus... so much for the myth of the 'sucky advent economy'."
Agreed.
Honestly, I do think this is the problem with Advent. Their units aren't so strong to be unbeatable. Quite the contrary, I spent tonight slaughtering some of those skill-less Advents on ICO (as TEC, it should happen). If you play 'em poorly, Advent dies like everyone else. Now, Vasari has a few troubles here, but it's still quite doable.
Someone was talking in a game about a test they did regarding the illuminator's bugged damage. Apparently their forward beam is doing something like 60 dps instead of 20 (rough numbers), so bug fixing them is actually going to be a massive nerf.
Actually, yeah, I have noticed them working a lot more smoothly.
I personally favour bringing all scouts in line (on a cost-basis) to the TEC scout. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but that means a nerf to the seeker and a buff to the navigator. I still stand by this stance; the TEC scout is very well balanced currently.
As for quick-start, I don't know what that would change. Certainly it would help Vasari hold neutrals more easily early on, and it would prevent fast illuminators, but on the flip-side it seems like that would be a hayday for the seeker/disciple rush with Halcyon.
I actually prefer TEC. In 1v1 random maps, you have enough time before first contact that you can get a small trade line up and just completely own your opponent with a better eco. Sure, those Illums are annoying, but in 1v1 I've found a mix of flak, lrms, a high level Akkan seem to do the trick. 1v1 random is about exploiting eco more than your opponent early so you can overwhelm him when you two actually begin to fight. Don't get me wrong. I agree that most people pick Advent. I'm just saying I like to make said players sob when I use TEC and stomp them into the ground.
Wow...I had no idea that Repulse was an AOE (not having ever used it). I can't believe that all this time I've thought Repulse was single target...I wonder where I got that impression. That's just insane! Boy, do I feel stupid now.
Also, thanks for the mentions of the bugged Illuminators...I finally found out about the mystery damage bug being confirmed by Blair in one of Deciever_0's posts. Hm...I wonder if my team will notice if I stop using lums in our next game....lol!
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