Rename the roll of the "Scout" frigate
Other then Tec, the other two race dont have "Scout" in their name.
I would suggest mini frigates as there are light frigates already.
People seem to think just because they are scouts they are not suppose to attack, but only explorer and detect mines.
Its like using mines for defensive purposes only. I've used them many times to attack someone with.
I've used SB's (not just the vas sb) to attack another players planet
A rose by any other name......still smells like spam to me.
[_]-Greyfox
Too bad my spam counters yours
You can rename them scouts if you wish, but thats what I'm going to keep calling them. And this is hardly the first game where scouts can be used as offensive units in certain situations.
True, but many people don't like the idea of a combat scout. Maybe the scout's infocard should say "counters long range frigates" rather then saying that scouts counters nothing. Changing the name would make sense though imo.
How about: "Compact Frigate"
Spam Frigate
Edit- If everything i've been reading on these forums is true (And the sources DO seem credible) Most of the infocards need updating to show everything they counter.
Um, why not give everything the same name, and give them all the same abilities. That way everything would be balanced and there would be no rename this, nerf that, buff the other.
Simple solution. Game might be a bit boring though...
As I briefly expressed my opinion on prior to the game we played a few days a ago, JJ, I'm one of the people who think scouts are not meant for combat. IMO, the validity of scouts as combat units are no more than a major oversight on the developers' part being exploited by advanced players who know the game better than its makers do. Scout: 'Strong against none' and auto-attack off by default hint at/prove this.
This is a case seen in countless games, especially when a competetive online component is present: People make the game do things the makers of it never even thought of.
Of course, this also offers clue to why the Vasari race is as unbalanced as is the case: They're supposed to hold the upper hand in combat in the game's earliest phases due the being able to field the uncounterable long-range frigate - except the developers 'forgot' about the massive firepower they put on scouting units.
If you doubt this, take a look at the Vasari research trees. The entire thing screams 'Combat/bounty hunters'. The developers intended for the TEC and Advent to hide behind fortifications in fear of roaming, *skirmishing*/raiding Vasari strike forces. Of course, that is clearly not how the game actually plays out.
In short: The balance problems arise because you guys are better SOASE players than the developers are.
LRF needs a counter, and scouts fill that role. (As do fighters, i think) Only strikecraft is rediculous, which is what i believe about HC, but there's not much to be done about that one without changing too much gameplay. I think scouts SHOULD be able to counter ultra light armor, but maybe cost a little more resource wise so you can't pump them out so esily. I do NOT think they should cost more supply, as that would screw up the game emmensely for those people who see scouts as a tool with limited use. (ie intelligence and anti-minefield, whether by care and planning or fodder to clear the way.)
Also note that LF, and Flak (I think) slaughters them, so having a 1/4 LF/Flak // 3/4 LRF fleet would give you a descent chance of success, until they build LRF of their own with scouts.
scouts are only given firepower to defend themselves. Their named scouts because they perform a key job its called recon. The recon team isnt supposed to outright engage the enemy. they sometimes are in a key position to perform a SpecOps type mission.
Example: TEC Scout....it can set charges to structures for a terrorist style attack which if this was reality would halt that structures ability to produce whatever it was meant for.
But the key role of a scout is supposed to be to watch not attack. Like Apheirox said, and this has been what ive said for a while now about MP the players online have found the weaknesses and strengths of everything, And have exploited key units that werent intended to fill a certian role. But those units have found themselves in the strategies of the Pro players because of the strengths that have been found to overwhelm units its not supposed to even come in direct contact with. And the arguement the Devs knew about these exploits or intended for these exploits is weak. If they knew that a scout would overwhelm LRF (which im guessing they never truely tested out, because they never thought people would turn to them) im sure they wouldnt give the Scouts the firepower they have now. Also the fact the Devs have come in number of times nerfing and buffing a number of units the pros exploited tells you they didnt see it coming. The Devs have also admitted the MP players have alot more time on their hands and this is why they rely on Player feedback to fix any holes in the game.
Scouts have a weapon, therefor, they are meant to attack enemies. Even Colony frigates can fight. It's just that the latter sucks at it.
But really, it's just people complaining about a name. There's no reason to change the Scout's name just because it's also used for combat. And no offense, but mini-frigate sounds really stupid.
Unless the Scout Cavalry in AOK is going to be renamed the mini-cavalry.
your wrong, a weapon doesnt constitute an offensive ability. The reason the Scouts are so useful is their stats, they have a strong hull and shields because they were meant to aid it when it ran through enemy and neutral GWs. The Pros exploited this fact. RA starting it all.
Both Scouts and Colony frigs were outfitted with weapons for the sake of defending themselves. Not for outright warfare.
i still don't understand what people's problem with scouts is. You still get more bang for your buck, at least supply wise, with LF than Scouts. 10 Cobalts or 25 Arcovas accompanying your Capitol Ship. Which do you think will win?
But, if you want to even it out a bit(Assuming this isn't already the case), Make Scouts weak to LF. That will most likely kill the entire scout-spam fad outright. If it's already in place, slaughter their scout spam with aforementioned LFs.
I am confident that 1 Cobalt vs 3 Arcovas will be victorious. Hell, they probably will barely crack it's shields. Same for the other races in respect to supply cost. (1 Disiple vs 2 Seekers, 1 Skirmisher vs 2 Jikara. Hell, let's make it 3.)
I do believe they were meant to use in combat, but not the way they have been on ICO. I think they were meant to act as last minute replacements in a battle at your GW where you'll be just a couple regular ships short to be victorious, but don't have the time to build the better ones.
I propose we rename JJ to "Mini Frigate Guy"
Every ship has a weapon to be able to participate in combat. Even Colony frigates have a weapon to at least fend of other Colony frigates or Vasari scouts and defend neutrals. Scouts can explore- but every ship can fly around to scout out a place. It's just that Scouts are better at it. If Scouts were really nerfed, they'd be useless for just about everything.
Besides, historically, scouts were needed even to help in skirmishes. Why is it that SOASE Scouts shouldn't be allowed to fight?
keywords there fend off (fend aka fight off aka defend yourself NOT aka offensive)
Why shouldnt scouts be allowed to fight? hmm, maybe because half the MP players are in a uproar right now about nerfing the damn things. Because people have exploited them. Again, scouts are not supposed to out right get into a battle, their not made to go one on one with another unit. They are only effective in large numbers, which shows you that they are horrible at combat unless they totally outnumber a unit.
Yeah, I don't think scouts should be nerfed stat wise so they are totally useless. I DO think they should all cost a bit more (say 250cr) and take 3 supply instead of 2, so the are in line with the Vasari scout. They will still be perfectly usable for any purpose, including countering LRF, but their cost will be a bit more in line with their effectiveness.
So much to say, so here goes.
To be honest, I started doing it because Illums were so god damn abused that I was looking for anything. I found it when I made the unit guide and saw there was an actual hard counter that didn't go down to flak faster than a saigon whore.
Very very dependent on what your pirates look like on the planets you want to caputre.
They already are. Even the seeker dies quickly to lfs, however as skirmishers suck at life, they need reintegration to work as a seeker counter.
They....are.....only......effective.....against.....LIGHT.....ARMOR!!!!!!!!!!!
How many times do I have to say this? The only early game targets scouts are good against are:
1. Other scouts
2. Colonizing frigates (what isn't though)
3. Long Range Frigates (only very early game counter that works, and I don't want to hear the fighter arguement, a little flak and those SC are dead)
4. Seige frigates (but again, what isn't?)
The only combat unit scouts are good against besides themselves is long range frigates. If scouts are winning because of pure numbers, it's because the person fighting them off isn't investing in a fleet to fight them off, and you know what? If you see a fleet and don't think "oh, hey, a fleet, I better build one myself or i won't be able to push him back", you will die in this game. It's that simple.
Again. Massed scouts are laugable. If you haven't realized this, you don't know how counters work in this game. The people who are bitching about scouts (not you cykur) in my eyes tend to be Illum exploiters who can't stand the fact that there's an early game counter to their old reliable exploit. I realize I'm a lumping a lot of experienced people into one ignorant statement, but I swear that is what feels like is the motivation for people to bitch about scouts.
Personally, I'm happy with the current balance. Vasari needs some work, but all early game strategies are counterable, and that's what I will defend adamantly. Get it so that the counters work. Don't mess with a ship (scouts in general) that isn't broken. Seekers are a little out of line, yes, but they're still easy to handle.
Wish people would hear this. They're just so ridiculously ineffective against anything else beside what you listed, I have a hard time taking complaints about them seriously. I get the feeling it's peoples love of LRF spam thats causing such an uproar. It began when you introduced the strategy, and now with tougher LFs, theres an early game combo (for TEC and Advent at least) that can trump the old LRF rush everyone got so accustomed to.
What I see smarter guys doing these days is building a couple of LFs right off the bat until they scout their enemies, that way if they see scouts massing, theyve got a jump on the counter AND have a few units to help clear the first planet or two. If they see LRF, well then scouts are coming out. I agree Advent scouts are a bit tough, and Vasari scouts are pretty useless in the combat regard.
Ha, I said this before on another post. I'll say it again. Eons ago I spent a ridiculous amount of time exploring the possibilities of scout spam against lrf/illum/assailant spam. Eons ago I honed in on the Advent scout as being the scout of choice. Eons ago I tested scout spam online in multiplayer, weathering storms of "quit building fleets of crappy scouts, you crappy newb!"
I resent giving all credit to "starting it all" to RA. However, I will give credit to RA that he apparently made it work where I failed. I was unable to ever get victories with scout spam, so I eventually abandoned the whole notion, only to see this usurper RA not only use my idea, but also reap the rewards. RA The Usurper has either profited from some change in the dynamic of the game which has made scouts stronger (it has been many patches since I worked on this idea), or he is simply a much better player than I am, or both.
And with that I extend congrats to RA the Usurper, I guess
DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just don't like the game being dominated by Tier 0 units. Yes, Scouts do lousy damage, but enough of them will take out a cap. I haven't been able to play the last few weeks, but when I had a chance to play a bit last month, and people were getting me to retreat caps with their mostly scout, some disciple armies. Scouts are meat shields....they suck up damage from your secondary batteries while you are trying to kill the more dangerous LF's. They are replaced as fast as you can kill them. I'm sure a big part of my problem is I like to play Vasari, and I just need to switch to Advent for a while. Why wouldn't I play Advent now? Best Scout, Arguably best LF, Most DPS Flak, Best Carrier, Best LRF, and great Capital / Guardian support cruiser synergies...highest DPS HC too, but who would ever need em?
RA, you are oversimplifying people's opposition to the scout/LF spam. It's not that people can't adjust and make their own fleets full of light frigates to counter the enemy's scouts and light frigates. It's just that they think it's ridiculous that the game will be played with and decided by huge fleets full of scouts and light frigates.
I never exploited illums because back when that was popular I didn't even play online. Like I said in #8 reply above, I 'complain' about scouts because they obviously weren't meant for combat. Had the developers intended for them to take a combat role - even a light combat, clear-the-neutrals-role - they would have had autoattack on by default.
What instead happens is people exploit the scouts to counter the exploit of LRFs - something that is only necessary because fighters don't counter LRF properly. It's rock-scissor-paper in space: LF-LRF-carrier/fighter. The scouts have no place in that equation - they counter lack of intelligence and mines.
Again, if you would take the time to look at the Vasari research tree it would be obvious to you Vasari are meant be extremely aggressive. The fact I can just load up another thread and hear suggestions on defending early with Vasari just proves how much scouts are screwing balance up by nullifying the power of the Vas joker card called early (uncounterable) LRF.
This is how the devs intended the early game to play out:
TEC: Fortify and develop economy.
Vasari: Go raiding, collecting bounty.
Advent: Build fighter army to prevent Assailant raids/bombers to attack the TEC.
Two out of the three races are aggressive early on, especially the Vasari (or rather, were MEANT TO be). That's why they get the siege frigate at tier one, also. The Scouts totally f*ck this whole game balance up to the point of even turning the tables and putting the Vasari on the defensive. Utterly ridiculous.
This is a personal strategy, and i will argue such until you prove the devs wanted the game to play out this way WITHOUT resorting to something like "It's the best way to exploit these races."
That said, i agree with Amish. Scouts should be, and are, a combat ship and were meant for such a role. They would have been given better shields/hull/armor and no gun if they weren't. The fact that they have an armor type they counter proves this, so people need to stop crying about it and come up with either reasons why they fullfill this role too well, or strategies to counter them. (There are MANY options for the latter.)
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