So I've heard a LOT of complaining lately, either online or in the forums about how Scouts are just too OP against LRFs and need to be nerfed because they shouldn't counter LRFs the way they do.
What people seem to fail to see is that if you take Scouts out of the equation, the only other hard counter you will have against LRFs are Fighters.
There's 2 problems with this situation:
1. Getting mass fighters early is hard because Carrier caps are expensive (not to mention the research required) AND getting Carrier Cruisers is also expensive and requires research. Massing fighters early against Long-Range Frigates is a joke solution, and can only be done mid game at best.
2. Fighters are probably the easiest countered unit in the game. Flaks rip them to shreds in no time. Halcyon Carriers and other cap ships have abilities that take them apart with ease. Even other fighters do a decent job against them.
Fighters are just NOT a realistic solution to mass LRFs. I know on paper it sounds good to you guys but every unit needs at least 2 counters, and if you remove Scouts from the equation, LRFs would reign supreme early game.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about anyways. Do people think LRFs should be uncounterable just because they beat Light Frigates?
Honestly, I don't see the problem. If your enemy is massing Scouts to counter your LRFs, you can mass Scouts back or get fighters later on. Flak Frigates also do the trick (so I'm told). Another thing to consider is that Scouts absolutely SUCK at anything other than LRFs and other Scouts. They do horrible damage to cap ships, buildings, LFs, Cruisers, HCs, everything. If your opponent masses Scouts you should be happy, because they just spent a bunch of money on something that only counters one thing.
I think people are just getting on here and raging because they can't just instantly win the game with LRF spam.
Fighters are not a realistic solution against LRFs and light armor, especially because their targetting system ALWAYS focuses bombers first, which means half the time LRFs won't even get focused.
Now granted, Vasari's Scouts suck, but hell, that's nothing new for them, most of their units do. I honestly think we need to leave Scouts alone or else LRFs will rule the multiplayer battlefield with no way to be countered.
Discuss.
This is already being discussed on 2 other threads. Why are you starting a third? First of all, the problem is not necessarily with scouts but their combination of scouts and LF which negate most of their early counters. It is a no lab thing to do. All you have to do is put up more frigate factories and sell crystal to do it. LF kill the flak and carrier counters to scouts and scouts kill the LRF counter to the LF. It leaves you with little option other than spamming LF yourself or SBing up. Vasari are SOL because both their LF and scouts suck. LRF already have many counters which I have already mentioned in the other threads. It is unnecessary to have scouts in this postion. They already have 2 main jobs, scouting and mine sweeping along with secondary things like martyr and timed explosives. Having to build flak as a counter to fighters is not a terrible thing. It leads to a mixed fleet which is sorta the goal. Allowing scout/LF spam does not open options, it closes them because you are left to do LF spam to counter.
[_]-Greyfox
You seem to be looking at this with a very narrow-minded view which somehow portrays LRFs as the victim of the current game balance.
You say: LFs and Scouts are too powerful together, they counter too many things and can only be stopped by LF spam.
First of all, considering that everyone has access to LFs, I don't see the problem here. But barring that, you could put any 2 of the 3 units being talked about together and say that they counter too much and are hard to stop.
For example, I could say: LRFs + Scouts are too powerful and counter too much. The LRFs counter LFs and Capital Ships, while the Scouts handle the enemy's LRFs and other Scouts, making it a combination which is too good. For some reason you have chosen LFs+Scouts because it seems imbalanced to you, maybe because you favor LRF spam but who knows. It's a simple case of Rock-Paper-Scissors that people are blowing way out of proportion. Say LFs are Rock, Scouts are Scissors, and LRFs are Paper. What you are basically saying is that Rock and Scissors in combination are too powerful when in reality, any two combinations of the three have their advantages and disadvantages.
Also, if Scouts didn't counter LRFs, LRFs wouldn't HAVE a counter. Fighters are a joke against them because they are much too easily countered themselves and can not be massed early game, and mass flaks against LRFs is well..lol.
Also, concerning Vasari - the fact that their LRF is their only reliable early game ship (and STILL inferior to the other races) has nothing to do with Scouts being overpowered. It has everything to do with Vasari ships being garbage, which won't be fixed by nerfing Scouts.
Scouts are now up on the PSCF come cast a vote now
Is there some sort of a game rule that prevents people from making their own LRMs to counter an opponent's LRMs?
You've missed the point completely. The problem is that instead of being a game of LRM spam it's become a game of scout and LF spam, so now the games will be won early on with scout and LF spam.
People who have tried LRMs as a counter in game have been thumped down and players with recent experience have learned that there's no need to make LRMs to counter enemy LRMs when you could just save money on military labs and make scouts yourself. Of course you do need LFs to counter your opponents LFs and his scouts. Seriously, I have seen huge, intimidating fleets of nothing but scouts and LFs in many games lately.
the real problem is not scouts or light frigs.
I agree most scouts should be left alone. except the advnet ones. Right now, if you look at it they have the best LF, best scout, best Early game carreir (due to the 2 labs), and the best Long range frigate.
That is not the problem though. THeir scouts have more than 2x the sheilds of TEC (im keeping Vasari out of the comparison because we all know that Vasari Scouts suck for fighting), and almost the same Hull. Basically they are tanks early game. Advnets Lf with Scouts cant be countered by anyting except Sbs or pure LF spam which is easily controlled by LRFs.
Advnet can scout and LF rush and counter absolutley everything in the early game.
What needs to happen is Advent scouts be made the same, or weaker than TEC scouts. That way they can be easily controlled quickly by the units that counter them.
Now i am not saying that Scouts arnt countered properly its just that advnet scouts are so strong that they can take out long range frigates before an equal investment in LFs or fighters can take them out.
I think as long as Advent scouts are knocked into line with the others there will be no problem any more. and scout and LF spamming will be considerd a counterable stratagy just as much as any other one.
_|~Uber
I agree with top vasari.
Top Vasari just expressed my opinion on the matter pretty much. Buff the Vasari LF/scout to make them comparable with the other factions, nerf the Advent scout to about the level of the TEC one, and things are looking pretty good.
I agree with Darvin. If the Ironclad devs would just make these couple simple changes, it would work WONDERs for the balance of multiplayer games, and also (hopefully) make Vasari a viable race in the early game battle. That would be so beautiful.
i think the problem is people are playing with a tickbox style approach.
as in: first second third
regardless of what the enemy is doing
people used to spam LRF because they were hard to counter
now, there is a unit that effectively devastates an LRF spam, and is exceptionally cheap to create.
so (the 'immature') people are crying because their step by step guide to winning doesnt work anymore, instead of changing their tactics.
like others have said, there is no rule to say you cant spam the same units as your opponent and then hope to get some sort of advantage, be that numbers, extra research, defending home turf etc.
send scouts out to neutral GW's and other places where a scout can sit without being attacked between you and your enemy, and when the enemy fleet comes into one of those GW's, you can then see what sort of fleet he has and how to counter it. im not saying its perfect, but its better than crying about your plans being screwed when you didnt bother to gather intelligence beforehand.
to be quite honest, a mixed fleet of scouts, LF, LRF and maybe even a few carriers and DUC's (Defensive Utility Cruisers), even if you only have 1 or 2 of the latter 2, would be much more effective and versatile than simply spamming a unit or a unit synergy.
you just have to hope you get lucky and can build a sufficient fleet before the other guy, and thats how it should be, because guaranteed winning methods are what kill a game
THeir scouts have more than 2x the sheilds of TEC...
What needs to happen is Advent scouts be made the same, or weaker than TEC scouts.
I disagree. As far as I know (someone correct me if I am wrong) ADVENT SCOUTS HAVE BEEN THE SAME SINCE THE GAME SHIPPED. Yet no one ever complained about them before. Never.
Some other game dynamic changed, but the Advent scout did not change. So if there is a "problem" and you want to fix said "problem," hone in on the dynamic that changed, not the Advent scout.
Darvin3 said that it was buffs to light frigs (which ironically enough were demanded by players) that caused scouts to seem so powerful.
That is exactly what happened.
Actually, there has a been a roller coaster of things which have dominated the game. Believe it or not, when the game first shipped, siege frigs dominated the game. Yes, siege frigs.
But after that, it was "lrf spam baby!" Carriers were buffed, and then it was carrier spam like you wouldn't believe (man, did I hate that). After nerfs, it was lrf spam again. Now that scouts seem to counter lrfs, the lrf spammers are screaming. But once scouts are nerfed, it will be "lrf spam BABY!" again.
The roller coaster of "buff this! nerf that!" goes up and down, but it always seems to land on lrf spam in the end. I hated carrier spam the worst for some reason, but lrf spam has been worse in this game's history. If I have to pick my poison, I prefer scout/lf spam to eff'ing lrm spam, any day of the week and twice on sundays.
Obviously there is always going to be a fine line between Scout/LF spam vs. LRF spam and trying to balance that between 3 races whilst keeping each race individual and unique.
Ironclad's (in my opinion) not so bright decision of making a basic unit (LFs) counter 4 types of ships (Flaks, and 3 Cruisers) meant that they needed a heavy counter to keep them in check: Enter the LRF. However, the LRF would be TOO specialized if it countered only LFs, so they also made it counter cap ships as an added bonus. Well the problem then becomes the fact that LRFs can rule early game because LFs and Cap Ships are really all you have until mid-game.
So the devs decided that Scouts could temporarily counter LRFs until players get the ability to unlock other techs to do the job.
The question is: Just how powerful should Scouts be to fill their one combat role - early counter to LRFs? Obviously this is up for debate and the delicate triangle between LFs, Scouts, and LRFs is never going to be easy to solve. What I can tell you for sure that removing Scouts from the equation would turn the "equation" into a one-sided massacre.
Wingflier, what has made you an instant expert here? On the first of this month you were admitting that you had played your first entrenchment game and made several posts asking how to counter things and now you are here talking like you know everything there is to know about counters and what is OP or not. It is not the scouts alone that is the problem. The problem is LF and scouts together spammed without the need for any labs or research. I will respect raging amish and JJs opinion despite them disagreeing with me because they have the experience to know about unit balance without talking out of their asses. Get some experience before you start talking about how imbalanced or not something is.
Personally Greyfox, I find sometimes when someone who is not jaded by months/years of experience can often bring a fresh perspective to an issue. And that is what Wingflier has done here. Yes, it is true that he has little experience. But the fact that he was willing to come to the forum lines and ask for help, and actually listened and applied said advice should give him the respect of the right to be listened to even though his level of experience is low. Notcie that a lot of other experience ones (Raging Amish and JJ) are willing to listen to him and if they feel that he is incorrect, they usually use facts and observations to help bring him in line, not lame insults like "Get some experience before you start talking about how imbalanced or not something is." I for one do agree with him on this point about the overall scout/LF issue. And I have been around.
Thats because they dont know what they are talking about.
Basically lets make stats of all ships to be the same .As I said before I think the scouts were balanced by race and their abilities which advent basically have none(martydom sucks).
He was agreeing with JJ and amish, not vice versa. Those are generally good ones to agree with because they know what they are talking about but still.... he doesn't have enough experience to make an educated statement. Amish has long been a fan of scout rushing. JJ is newer to the table in that regard because he was mainly vasari before and their scouts suck comparatively combat wise.
I was thinking the same thing; it's hard to take a guy's opinion seriously if he doesn't have a lot of experience playing it in online multiplayer (and in the case of this issue, recent experience).
I can live with the scout/LF spam and contrary to what TheRezonator suggested, I and other skilled players HAVE adapted to it and now you see lots of LF and scout spam. In fact, I have modified much of my early game strategy to adjust to it. A humiliating butt-raping or two from one of JJ's smurfs against one of my smurfs was all it took for me to reevaluate and appreciate the value of scouts and the new light frigate. It's not that skilled players can't adjust, it's just that some of us think that it's ridiculous for the game to be played with huge fleets of scouts and LFs.
The reasons I feel comfortable posting on the forums after only a couple weeks of online experience are a few:
1. I've played RTS games my whole life. Mostly ground-based series but many space ones as well (such as the homeworld series). While each strategy game is different, they all share many things.
2. I can beat 75% or more of the people I play online in a 1v1. I've played about 30 games so far, even against pros like JJ, and I feel like I understand the game very well already. Obviously its hard to tell WHO I beat because everyone smurfs so hard, but I know a lot of them are vets by the way they play. It should not come as a surprise that someone who has played tens of thousands of hours of strategy games in his life can learn a new one fairly quickly.
3. Like Ryat said, sometimes it's nice to have a new perspective on things.
If there was anything I said that was incorrect or wrong, and several people agreed that it was so - I would definitely apologize and admit that I was overstepping my experience in that comment.
I don't know what has happened in Sins past. I just know for the past 2 weeks I've done whatever I can to understand and explore this game, and I think I've done a pretty good job. The reason I'm so adamant about Scouts not being nerfed is BECAUSE of my previous experience, where I see people wanting to ruin game balance for their personal ends. Sometimes the devs need an opposing viewpoint or thread to realize that it's not a legitimate concern, or that it's at least not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
edit: Also, I'm sorry if I'm full of shit about this issue, I just care about the game. I don't mean to make bad points or false statements due to my lack of experience. Sorry if I'm being frustrating guys
No matter what is buffed or nerfed, someone is going to find something to exploit and spam. Spam isnt going to stop. And its surprising how much buffind and nerfing has gone on yet no one has learned their lesson yet. Eliminating one sort of spam, is only going to start another spam. The game is balanced ALOT more then it has been in the past. But...if you guys want to keep goin in this broken cycle of buff and nerf, go ahead, but next time the Devs go to "balance" the game with an update. Ill make sure not to update.
The only reason I think people are so upset about the LF/Scout Spam is because of how early on it can come at you. But im willing to bet, everyone here whos upset about it, have done it themselves in the past. But what their really upset about is the fact the other guys are better at it and get around to spamming before you can.
Maybe if the "Pros" agreed to stop spamming (which I think is a pathetic strategy, no thought in it, all you need to know is what counters what) when they faced off then maybe that would set a president in the MP community. Its called an unspoken law, its not against the rules but its frowned on. And the next time the person (the spammer) wants to play you and you refuse, theyll know it was because of their actions. Eventually when they have enough people refusing to play against them theyll agree to not to spam anymore. Everyone seems to follow the leader aka the Pros. I get it, it takes away apart of a strategy...but its an annoying strategy that everyone seems to be upset about. Even those that participate in it. You cant outright stop spamming entirely by changing the stats. Its just not possible. You can curb it by agreeing as a community its to be frowned upon. And those that actively spam will either have to agree to no longer spam or just play each other. Even then it wont be stopped entirely, But if the Pros set the example. Im sure the communty will follow.
It would be nice if people would refuse to spam that stuff or anything in general but I am somewhat doubtful that will occur in this case. Even when there are out and out exploits(for example the old neutral scuttling trick that many exploited) that one could use it is difficult to stamp out completely. For many people the ends justifies the means and they will cheat, borrow or steal to attain those ends. As far as this goes, not everyone agrees it is a bad thing. Some see it is something that is built into the game and thus a fair and non-cheezy way to play. That gives them enough ground to defend their case for spam. There will always be some unit that will be used more than others. There is no getting away from someone's definition for spam. I could accept other types of spam and still enjoy my game. This is not fun to me to combat so if it persists I will speak with my feet as they say and walk away.
Think if modern scientists had your attitude: "No matter what kind of medical breakthroughs we make or what new type of medications we come out with, people are still going to die eventually. There is no way to make someone live forever, so why even try?"
See what I mean? Just because the balance will never be perfect, doesn't mean that perfect balance shouldn't always be strived for! If the devs had taken your attitude after the game was initially released, Siege frigs (so I'm told) would still be the spammable unit and the game would be horribly imbalanced. It is only BECAUSE of us and because of our commitment to the game balance that it has come as far as it has. I think asking the devs to stop balancing the game is very counterproductive.
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