Been trying to figure this out. If you play vs rook, erebus, beast. How they heck can you avoid triple stun on cataract.
1. Boulder gets thrown first, goes down the "bowling alley" of the map.
2. Erebus does bat swarm to close the gap, followed by mass charm
3. Beast walks up, and does foul grasp.
4. While all of this is happening. Once rook throws his boulder, he begins walking up for a slam.
5. If you survive all of that, you are slown down from the bite, and slam and boulder recharge is back, and even if recharge takes a few more seconds, boulder goes the length of cat, no matter which direction you go it's a straight away. So you get bouldered again, and the cycle repeats itself. you're dead.
6. proceed to fight 3v2, or cap their gold mine
I've played against this 3 times, and have no idea how to counter it. Thoughts?
I am clueless
I dont really understand your problem : if they gang up at 3, they killed 1, 2 or 3 of you, this is what you said correct ?
Let's admit you stand no chance in a fight when the 3 of them are here. Why would you go for such a fight ? If they gather 3 of them, they clearly loose map control.
The solution would rather be tactical IMHO : lure them so they go for a 3vX gank that wont give them a kill. example : take oak and a general with cloak of the night and rush on the rook : the 2 others tp, your oak shield and flee, the general warps and flee --> they have used their TP + one of your teammate was free to cap flags on the opposite of the map.
If you really intend to go for a fight, why dont you just use the same weapons : a sedna + erebus allows you to stun them too, and interupt full grasp with pounce.
One last point : when you are stunned you can not act, but your army can, and you still regen HP. A level 5 sedna with HW2 and bishops is hard to kill, even more if you add some armor/hp items (your mates can drop you banded armor, unbreakables boots and a scalemail if the point is only to survive the stun combo).
the point is that they do not lose map control if doing right. but partially i think this is an idea worth to base on a strategy.
you cannot interrupt foul craps with pounce. and even if it does not help the cast time of pounce is nearly as long as the stunn of foul grasp.
at level 5 a sedna has no cahnce to surpive this. at level five you will not have enough armor even if you don't buy bishops. and the point is not only to survive the stun: you are also slowed. you may survive the stunn but you will die for sure in the next 2 or 3 seconds even if you manage to get a heal, even if you can use cloak of night to get some distance. you are slowed and they cath up easealy.
Maybe the key is to not fight it straight up at all and just try to outsiege. Minion Oak, minion erebus and QoT (for ground spikes and shield). Ground spikes and minions should make quick work of any rook towers leaving rook vulnerable. Shield can help to avoid getting brutalized by the stuns. And enough minions will be able to do a number on their towers from a safe distance.
Ground spikes are also good for creep control mid to late, and will assist in keeping the minion supply high.
Let the minions do the damage from a distance, combined with the debuff of bite and ground spikes.
well, this will probably not be enough but luring them into consuming tp scrolls wihtout actually getting a kill by retreating fast enough will cost them far too much money.
destroying their towers in teams of two dgs (one to get flags) is of course slower than what tehy do but you can still do it pretty fast. retreat before they ported in. attack another tower or go back again. maybe they even wasted a tp scroll. make them jump arround the map for nothing not feeding them.
then later you can catch up by armor to stand a fight against their stunns using silence and co.
but of course only a premade has a chance against this.
lol I see you tried again vs the same combo with the same combo we had with no better results i honestly think the only counter to UB, LE, Rook is UB, LE, Rook. Same fuckin strat.. just played better. GL.
I'm sure whenever the new demigods come out there might be a counter to this.. and a new super team will evolve.. but until then.. a "damn good" UB, LE, Rook combo is imo impossible to win as a "damn good" X, Y, Z combo unless it's mirror.
actually. looking into it... I checked through Posidenii's record.. found one time were he lost as Rook UB LE to UB LE Oak... full pre on pre action, great ranked players both sides, 38 min game. http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/913708/player/63947/
Definitely wouldnt mind seeing a replay of that game Possible he hadn't really played with those people too much and maybe hadn't started playing the combo much then. Was about a month ago so.. who knows without a replay to see if something stupid happened that gave the game away when they should have won.
But.. if nothing went wrong.. Maybe it was our strat as ub, le, oak that was wrong. I went ooze thinking it would be good against those 3 melee.. but maybe spit ub, minion le and oak would be okay. Or just minion le and oak w/ ooze ub. W/e. I'd be down to try again.
pfft the kiddies these days complaining about stunlocking...back in my day stunlocks lasted for 20 minutes!J/K - immunity has helped a bunch but just like we said back when they put it in, Grasp makes a nice bridge Some thoughts:Stop playing their game - It sounds like all three of you are piling in for a fight with full commitment and getting devastated - stop that. Any survivability advantage you have is mitigated by their superior damage and control abilities, you will lose every direct confrontation you fight on their terms. Instead:Feint and use items like Defiance to make them waste stuns and mana and teleports without achieving the kill. Rook's towers will peak at level 10. Get there and then start pushing. Minions are replaceable at no cost and offer you no risk - use them. Combo LE + Oak morale builds are pretty effin sweet from across the map. Post observation wards everywhere. Lock flags any time you leave a lane or get pushed out. Use mana burn items to whittle down their reserves - teams like this are mana-dependent but typically finely tune their builds to have just enough for one or two battles. Warlord's Punisher has been improved in 1.9, was made for harassment, and there is no mechanic which prevents stacking it.. As Oak you should be using shield from level 1 to mitigate nukes on your allies Let's see a replay of the next time you play these guys to break it down furtherGood Luck!
Orb of defiance seems cool. At 3750 it's kinda steep. Invulnerable for 5 seconds is great, along with the 500 health and armor buffs (from demigoddb.com hopefully its still up to date on this one). Only gripe is you can't move, attack, or use items or spells. So you're kinda just sitting there. Is there a cast time? Or is it instant cast... can it be interrupted? Also, if you have it on, can the enemy still try to spit / grasp / bite / charm etc. in that 5 second time frame and lose their cooldowns for there spell? Or will the item not let them select me as a target?
Also, I won't have 3750 for this by the time they hit level 4/5 and go for the push. or if i do have 3750 for it, i wont have anything else on me that i can use in combat.
2250 for punisher (demigoddb) isn't that bad. I like the constant dps buff as well. I think this could be very useful as it bounces from target to target, so all 3 players could lose a decent amount of mana. Only thing is that 2250 to remove 400 mana still wont stop the stun. You mentioned that you can stack it, so all 3 players can have one. Only thing is, -1,200 mana is great, but it costs 6,750 for the team. that's like tower defense, currency 1, priests and angels give or take - or items that we can buy for combat, that the enemy will definately have.
Once they see that we stack it, couldn't they just as easily go shopping for a 2nd mana helm, say scaled helm + plenor, or plenor + vlemish and maybe a mana pot? plenor is only... what... 1500 1300 or something? x3 that's 4500 for their team, and we spent 6,750. Doesn't seem cost effective. But, the rook is very mana dependent.... erebus and beast not so much. unless we take pot shots at his priests and make him constantly revive them, he only need mana for bite charm and swarm..... bite and charm really. and he wont be using those spells on creeps or anything, just saving them for the team gank. If anything, it would force them to consume a mana pot before TP'ing into battle, that extra time could be good, unless they are really organized, and consume mana pots during the charm stun because the team will be stunned off of that one move.......... but on the other hand ereb might not have mana for swarm and charm, so he might not be able to hit everyone.... who knows it's game specific I guess. Also, what's stopping erebus from going into mist form when he tp's in..... unmisting.... have full mana - mist usage then go stun. Too many variables in the equation.
Big Problem:
if you constantly use warlords as a harassment tool like mana burn was for a demon hunter in warcraft, that's pretty awesome. I did some math though. A rook at level 5 with scaled helm and plenor will regen 13.46 mana a second. Warlords cooldown is 30 seconds and hits for -400 mana. So if you hit a guy for -400 mana with warlords, his mana will regen that 400 back in..... 29.7 seconds in other words, you get the mana back even before warlords hits again, and thats even if every 30 seconds on the dot you blast him with the item........... man this sucks. And this item just got buffed? are you forreal? If it was a favor item, i could understand, but a 2250 trinket? The item is obsolete the minute you can afford it. They actually took time to balance an item, say its improved, and it still blows? hahaha
Also, all of these numbers are assuming they DO NOT have control of the mana flag.
I'm not shooting you down, just tossing out ideas.
EDIT:
Just noticed something else. Nature's reckoning is a trinket as well. +600 mana, 15% chance on hit to strike nearby enemies with lightning for 250 dmg. cost of 1500. haha if the other team sees warlords punisher, they could buy this cheaper item, still have 200 mana more than they would have had if they didn't have it, and got hit with warlords, and have a chance at dealing 250 dmg lightning bolt and it's cheaper.... it's like the perfect counter for warlords and cheaper
yah I hear you, they really need better mana burn abilities and items in this game, but we work with what we have, you know?
I would use Punisher to harass and soften your opponents up rather than just opening a committed battle with it - life isn't really an issue for a gank team - mana is, and every time they hit their crystal they are ceding map control..
It's definitely easy for them to buy more helmets but when you have won a hundred games in a row using the exact same formula it can be hard to adjust to something new - alot of people wouldn't even recognize the animation for Punisher...Gauntlets of Despair can also be stacked on top to really max out your burn...
Defiance works best if you have indirect damage from towers or minions, so for example, using HoB, hitting Defiance, and then siccing your minions on whomever you are fighting for 5 seconds = pretty sweet. It is expensive though, and not a must have unless you are playing Rook
Edit: @ your Edit, Nature's is a great item, but we are getting off the point, no? You are trying to beat a stungank team - a bit more damage isn't going to do that. Yes, they can counter mana burn at less cost and minion-heavy builds any number of ways, but it's much harder to do with stuns, and it takes flexibility within a single game which isn't something you will see from 95% of even experienced and skilled players.
Stuns are much harder to chain now than they used to be - if you introduce elements a stun team isn't expecting you'll probably have better results
Could this be a hypothetical solution?
Say you're Oak. You've your two mates with you.
You evade the Rook's boulder roll (by running perpendicular to it), and penitence Erebus when he starts casting charm.
Then everyone on your team casts their burst damage abilities and piles onto erebus.
UB can stun only one of you, and Rook will take time to arrive; Ereb will die pretty quick. Then you pile onto the next victim.
I haven't read all you were saying about topic, but maybe 2 sedna (with your beast) can help, they both with silence on 5 lvl. (and of course 2 pounce and 2 healing )
You go: spit, ooze, *save*, spit & ooze, foul grasp, ...
I would just try and remember that the purposae of the Punisher is to not run someone out of mana over a period of time, its to deny them mana when they need it in a fight. Yes, they regen the mana back while the Punisher is on cooldown, but if you attack a Sedna, drain her of mana and deny her to cast that pesky Heal spell, you can kill her...then she doesnt regenerate mana at all for about 15-20 secs
ya I was just thinking of how ub / era / oak could win that comp.. think i found it.
TLDR: Minion Era / Oak (maybe just minion era), Ooze ub. When attacking all 3, ub on one side, oak on other, era wherever. Interrupt hammer slams - win.
minion era and oak so minions can just rape through all his towers while u sit back for a sec. If he wastes the mana to hammer slam them all.. great.. resummon gogo. Pretty sure he'll run out of mana dropping towers and hammer slamming before u do from resummoning.
When you push, make sure ub and oak are on opposite sides of rook (pref higher hp / armor one or highest run speed one on enemy cit side as they can escape easier if need be). this way, if rook boulder rolls ub side, oak can shield someone and penitence the mass charm or hammer slam (hammer slam taking prio if it's being cast, pretty sure that's the whole point of their stun is to catch someone in that). If rook boulder rolls oak side, ub can grasp mass charm or hammer slam. Ideally ub is ooze so he can be damaging all three, as they all 3 tend to fight together. Plus, rank 4 ooze will definitely help with the -40% attack speed debuff.
Only thing I really see is this: One side interrupts mass charm so rook immediately turns around to boulder roll the side that didnt interrupt and can hammer slam freely because the guy not stunned already used his interrupt. But.. ideally.. by that time you havent been stunned for a while, and a double set of minions plus 3 of you are raping one guy and they missed at least one stun, plus you still have oak shield. Or, you could expect the rook to turn around and boulder roll the other side and have oak shield the interrupter on that side so he can still interrupt slam.
Also, I would say that whenever ub grasps someone, that would be a great time for your era to mass charm as they are more than likely attempting to set up a stun. That should give whoever ub stunned enough time to get out of stun and be ready to stun w/e they need to.
Only problem is most people play "no doubles." You could go sedna, beast, random and hope that you get sedna as your random, but that's a 1/8 chance of happening.
Otherwise I'd just go Beast (straight ooze / inner beast + grasp + blood favor) + Erebus (minion build, at least 1 point in charm, 1 in mist, and max out bat swarm / horn of battle favor / siege archers and monks) + Beast (straight spit / inner beast / grasp + serpent dagger) and laugh at them.
In that case, no matter any way you slice it, any way we do battle on the field, it would look like this:
They go a spit / ooze hybrid beast
1. beast ereb vs beast (ooze) erebus. I win. Have spit beast harass the rook on other side
2. beast rook vs beast(spit) beast(ooze). I win while erebus minion beats erebus assassin on other side
3. Beast rook vs beast(spit) erebus. I win while ooze beast beats erebus on other side
4. Beast rook vs beast (ooze) erebus. I win while beast(spit) beats hybrid beast on other side
5. ereb rook vs beast beast........ yeah
6. ereb rook vs beast(ooze) ereb. I win while spit beast beats hybrid beast on other side
7. ereb rook vs beast (spit) ereb. I win while ooze beast beats hybrid beast on other side
And best of all
8. 3v3. I win. get hit with boulder, laugh, grasp erebus as he swarms in for stun, spit on him while grasped, cast charm as soon as he's grasped, then bite him, graps him again. He's now surrounded by my 3 dg's and he either stays and fights (swarm is on cooldown) or he goes into mist to stay alive, leaving his army at 3v2 and he will eventually have to come out of mist just to get insta - grasped / charm / grasp all over again and die.
Hybrid beast has to neglect inner beast, while my beasts can build that nasty skill up. My beasts will always have better spit, and better ooze than someone who tries to go both.... while my guys also have inner beast nastiness and eventually acclimation (Zomg)
Ooze beast > assassin erebus / hybrid beast
Spit beast > rook / hybrid beast
Both beasts don't need mana helms, 1 beast has serpent dagger for infinite mana and boots, ooze beast has boots and only needs mana for grasp..... stack HP items / armor and sigils / tp's.
spit beast with infinite mana can start pushign towers at level 1, forcing them to play defensive, or come fight us. and if we screw up and lose towers early, high level spit will down a tower waayyyyy quick. And even the playing field.
You dont know how i play my beast!
i go:
1 Spit 6 Foul grasp 11 Ooze IV (or inner II) 16 Acclimation (or Putrid flow)
2 Ooze 7 Spit III 12 inner II 17 Bestial Rage II
3 *save 8 Ooze III 13 inner III (or Bestial rage) 18 Bestial rage III
4 Spit & Ooze 9 inner (not always) 14 Bestial rage 19 Bestial rage IV
5 Post mortem 10 spit IV 15 Putrid flow (OR Acclimation!) 20 Unrelenting Wrath !!!
(pssst, this is a secret build, dont tell everybody)
Lol. You get your first bit of Karma for that. Made my day
Oh I didn't realize there are so many people interested in our strat. I can answer any questions you guy may have. I may even post the strat if there are enough people interested in it. It will involve a rook though
I just want you all to know its beatable. Although we didn't start using eb stun until later. There are 2 teams that I know can beat this under normal circumstances. I know there are other teams that beat us... but trust me it was either not my full complete team or I was messing around.
First team is Shadow (Xrapier). Believe it or not it was not their minion build that beat us, but their normal team. I forgot their makeup. Unforunately they don't play as much anymore. We beat their minion build team, which is why I strongly discourage anyone to say horn is OP, because its not.
2nd Team is msnt (Atma44x). Believe it or not it was reg/tb/ub. Very strange makeup, but if you ever challenge them... trust me it will hurt.
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