I caught my co-worker reading a Jehova witness book which explains how to understand the bible. He said its good reading but he does not believe anything that they write cause they twists the words to their liking. I asked " What did he mean by that?"
He said in this book it says that God created Jesus Christ and he said he did not create Jesus Christ. He said that God was Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
My opinion is that God is Jesus Christ Father as Jesus Christ is his son. So is the Holy Spirit God too or is God and Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit. I would like your opinion on this matter. I am an open minded person.
The Father is God,
The Son is God
The HS is God.
The JW's have it all wrong. They do not believe Jesus is God. God did not create Jesus. He always was. Jesus is God in the Flesh. My new modern view to say this is "God in skin."
I was a JW and I know alot about their belief system.
Hey KFC,
Let me introduce you to my wife Suhay. I told her if there was a place to ask such a question this would be it and I bet you would be the first to respond. thank you.
I thought you had been a Seventh Day Adventist?
My opinion is that God is Jesus Christ Father as Jesus Christ is his son. So is the Holy Spirit God too or is God and Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit.
And that never struck you as odd? An entity has a son and the son of the entity is the entity itself? He is his own father? It strikes me as extremely odd.
I would like your opinion on this matter. I am an open minded person.
It does depends on your religion, obviously.
I believe that there exists a god who created the world. I do not know (or care) if other gods exist. I do not believe that this god has a son or would have children ever. I do believe that Jesus probably existed and was some kind of progressive rabbi (teacher).
I believe that this god sent prophets to humanity. I do not believe that anyone knows how many he sent. I am convinced that the prophets mentioned in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) are real prophets. But I also people that Zoroaster, the Iranian prophet, was a real prophet. Muhammed of Mecca might have received messages from an angel but that wouldn't qualify him as a prophet as such because I only accept as prophets those who actually heard the voice of the god himself.
I believe that only one prophet ever had a direct conversation with the god.
And I believe that more than one religion can be true.
And finally I believe that I am not allowed to worship a man, even if he were G-d.
Moses?
Yep, was that too. Baptised in that faith at 15. Know alot about them as well. Also have a good friend who is a SDA. I've mentioned several times that I was involved in many cults over the years. I find now that it was a good thing because I can help others in their search for the truth knowing alot firsthand about these belief systems.
ha! You were right Charles.
Hello Suhay. Nice to meet you!
Exactly.
I've mentioned several times that I was involved in many cults over the years. I find now that it was a good thing because I can help others in their search for the truth knowing alot firsthand about these belief systems.
Cults are dangerous. But it usually enough to show people the way out of the cult rather than to the truth.
in order to show them the truth you need to expose the lie. In order to expose the lie, you must know the lies that are being told.
Haven't the cults just shown them "the truth"?
no, not at all unless you want to say "their" truth. That's why they're considered "cults" in the first place. Usually they're pretty far off; depends tho on how much truth is sprinkled in with the lies.
Yes, but how do you make that clear to cult followers by providing an alternative truth?
it's not easy but I don't think of it as an "alternative" truth. I guess that's because I'm not into relativism much.
It's basically the same for anything. Do they really want the truth or do they want their group? If they don't want the truth, conversation ends.
Before Jesus healed the paralytic he asked "Do you really want to be well?"
You don't, but the cult member hopefully is. Otherwise he won't give up his truth and replace it with another.
Cults are (not "can be") extremely dangerous and is supremely important for everyone to avoid getting sucked into them. That can be done, for example, by clinging to a normal religion. (By "normal" religion I mean a religion that is open and has no secrets and can easily be learned by anyone who wants to without becoming part of its system and/or a religion that has been around for a while and has shown not to lead to disaster.)
Who wouldn't?
you'd be surprised!
Suhay,
Thank you for your article and insightful question.
Charles ...thanks for encouraging Suhay to write.
Your co-worker is on the right track in understanding Jehovah Witnesses. They've taken Sacred Scripture and rewritten it according to their own beliefs. Like Unitarians, Muslims and Jews, Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in the Blessed Trinity or as KFC has already said, that Jesus Christ is God.
[quote who="KFC Kickin For Christ" comment="1"]The Father is God,The Son is GodThe HS is God.The JW's have it all wrong. They do not believe Jesus is God. God did not create Jesus. He always was. Jesus is God in the Flesh.
I agree.
That Jesus Christ always was, is and always will be is paramount and fully supported in Sacred Scripture.
Suhay writes:
That God is One in Three Divine Persons is a mystery of Faith that only God could have revealed.
The Blessed Trinity is not an opinion to me because I believe by the gift of Divine Faith. There is human faith and then there is the supernatural virtue of Faith. Same thing with hope and charity.
leauki posts:
Jesus is either God or He isn't....there is only one truth. One can't have the truth if he is not in possession of it...The Jehovah Witnesses are not in possession of the truth.
Speaking of "aternatie truth' is sophistry.
There is human health of the body and spritiaul health of the soul. Jesus had the paralyitic's spiritual wellness in mind.
but only the physical was healed.
Does the Greek language have a definite article?
Because when Jesus said "I am (the/a) son of G-d", how do we know it means "a son of G-d" (like we all are, and what in Hebrew means a religious person) or "the son of G-d", a unique relationship only Jesus would have?
I believe that the Trinity concept is the biggest lie/misunderstanding of the Christian faith and was born out of a total misunderstanding of what was written, in an attempt to reconcile that misunderstanding with the first commandment. It's an invention of misunderstanding.
At no point did Jesus ever teach anyone to worship him. When he taught us to pray he taught us to pray God, the Father, not himself.
The bible tells us that he sits at the right hand of God. He can't very well sit at his own right hand.
The bible also tells us that he is the only begotten son of God. That's pretty clear as far as I am concerned. He was, and is, God's son, not God Himself. But as Christians chose to worship him as God they had to come up with the Trinity idea to validate it. Naturally as God's son he had characteristics of God just as any offspring has them from their parents, that's to be expected.
As for the Holy Spirit thing, that was a means of saying the power or influence of God, not a unique personality. Again, a misuderstanding.
I am a follower of the teaching of Jesus, but do not subscribe to what I see as the mistaken dogma of what has become modern Christianity.
Jesus did not sit in the garden and pray to himself, nor did he cry out to himself on the cross. It's just silly, or God is schizophrenic which I doubt.
If one studies all of the various religions, especially those related to or stemming from the Judao-Christian, one can't help but ask questions unless they're intellectually dishonest or just plain stupid. Your questions are very valid and worthy of thought.
Some people come to some conclusions and beliefs, and others to others. Such is the nature of religion. You have to study all of the available ideas and data and decide for yourself what, if anything, is true. God, and I do believe in such, gave us the ability to think and reason and expects us to use it.
MasonM,
As you so often do you posted a very clear and well-thought-out comment.
I totally agree with you that the Trinity is a misunderstanding. In fact I believe it was a way to reconcile belief in the one G-d of Israel with the polytheism popular among Greeks and Romans. G-d wouldn't have spend 1400 years telling the Israelites to repeat "G-d is one... G-d is one... G-d is one..." just then to reveal that it was all a joke and He is in fact not one but three.
That would be consistent with Jesus' Jewish religion.
As for the Holy Spirit thing, that was a means of saying the power or influence of God, not a unique personality. Again, a misunderstanding.
In fact the spirit is mentioned several times in the Tanakh. But it never was a distinct personality.
You are a non-Trinitarian Christian. I respect that.
I believe Mason gave the best answer that makes most sense to me. I am Catholic but have never really made it my business to read the bible or understand every aspect of the Catholic religion. My understanding is very limited but what Mason said seems to go with what i believe in which I am sure my wife would agree.
Now the trick is to print this and have her give it to her friend to see what he thinks. It would be interesting to get him on here to blog, I'm sure he will have a ball with you guys/gals over religious articles.
Jesus also said "when you see me you see the Father." Jesus and the Father are one. They are both God and Jesus as well as the Apostles taught this clearly.
Jesus NEVER demanded anyone to worship him. True. That's why I hate to see Altar calls. He never pleaded or begged others to come to Him. That's where election comes in Mason but you and I are in disagreement over that. But he did ACCEPT worship from others when angels and apostles flatly denied it.
The deity of Christ is an essential, nonnegotiable tenet of the Christian faith. Several lines of biblical evidence flow together to prove conclusively that He is God.
1. Paul wrote that Jesus existed in the form of God possessing absolute equality with God (Phil 2:6). He also wrote "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Peter calls Jesus "our God and Savior." Even God the Father addressed the Son as God in Hebrews 1:8. John referred to Jesus as "the true God" 1 John 5:20.
2. Jesus receives titles in Scripture given to God. He took for Himself the divine name "I am." God and Jesus are both called Shepherd, Judge, Holy One, First and Last, Savior, Mighty God, Lord of Lords, Alpha and Omega and Redeemer among other names.
3. Jesus possesses the attributes of God. Scripture reveals Christ to be eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, immutable, sovereign and glorious.
4. Jesus does the works that only God can do. He created all things (john 1:3, Col 1:16) sustains the creation (Col 1:17, Heb 1:3) raises the dead (John 5:21, 11:25-44), forgives sin (Mark 2:10) and His word stands forever (Matt 24:35, Isa 40:8).
5. Jesus received worship (Matt 14:33, 28:9, John 9:38, Philip 2:10, Heb 1:6) even though he taught that only God is to be worshiped (Matt 4:10). Scripture also records that both holy men and holy angels refused worship (Acts 10:25-26, Rev 22:8-9).
6. Finally Jesus Christ received prayer which is only to be addressed to God (John 14:13-14, Acts 7:59-60, 1 John 5:13-15). Before Stephen died he "called upon God saying 'Lord Jesus receive my spirit.'"
Mason, you don't know your bible. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus said himself in John 14:
"Have I been so long with you and yet you have not know me Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father and how do you say then Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you I speak not of myself but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works sake. Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than thse shall he do because I go to my Father. And whatsoever you shall ask in my name that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask any thing in my name I will do it."
So when you pray to the Father, you are also praying to Jesus. They are one. They are both God. One God revealed in three persons.
Mason just got done saying he does not believe in the Trinity. The RCC does believe not only in the Trinity but that Jesus is God. I totally agree with the RCC here and know that's exactly what the bible teaches. So now you have to take Mason's word for it or you need to read the bible for yourself. Jesus said "who do you say that I am?" That's the million dollar question.
The simplist answer would be the resurrection. His resurrection proved he wasn't any ordinary man like we were not to mention all the other things he did. While anyone can claim to do a miracle not too many resurrect themselves.
Jesus also said "when you see me you see the Father." Jesus and the Father are one.
Since Jesus, as all men, was created in G-d's image, that is no big surprise.
My father told me that the resurrection was a metapher for people beginning to talk about Jesus again, after having been silenced for a while by the execution.
I don't see any evidence for a literal ressurection of a single person ever.
Then read the Jewish Historian Josephus's account of the first century. "Antiquities of the Jews." That's a good thing about the evidence. Because all that Rome had to do was come up with the body. They could not. That's the whole point. King David's tomb was known, Joseph, and all the Patriachs were also known but Jesus was the only one that was no longer in his tomb. It was empty because he had risen.
One thing is clear the resurrection was not a metaphor. Many men within just a few short years after the resurrection put their lives on the line by defending this resurrection. Like I've said before, while men may live for a lie, they are not going to die for one. Especially not that many.
To see the lives of the first martyrs before the resurrection and how drastically they changed after spoke volumes.
First off Jesus was NEVER created. He always was. He's all thru the OT. He's there if you open your eyes you'll see him.
Second, that's not what Jesus meant. God is spirit. We can not see God because He is spirit. That's the whole point. Jesus was saying he was God in the flesh. We are created in God's image because we are spiritual people as well. He put his spirit into us when he breathed not only on Adam right there in the Garden but also when Jesus breathed on his Apostles before he left.
If he didn't come, we would have no concept of God. Our finite minds just cannot comprehend such a mighty God. He came and dwelt among men to show us not only how to live for him today but also how to live for him for eternity.
Don't you think it's funny that the whole thing started in a Garden and was also finished in a garden? Jesus was buried and resurrected in a Garden Tomb.
Not a coincidence.
Jesus Himself answered your quiery when He said, "I and the Father are One." That too is in complete agreement with Deut.6:4, "Hear O Isreal, the Lord our God is One God." God is not a God of contradiction.
Jesus wasn't created.
Jesus is God Incarnate sent to the world by taking the form of a human. Jesus even while He was on earth as a man, was always a Divine Person.
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