So ive been seeing alot of debates about the Science used in Sins.
While i certainly enjoy having these debates in whatever thread they pop up in, i thought id make a definitive thread about as much as i can come up with.
I'll add to this as time goes by. Im more than welcome to corrections, debate and suggestions. Note that im just doing this off the top of my head as im sitting here, so i you would like to submit details (number values and what not) feel free.
so, from the top:
WEAPONS
TEC:
AutoCannons
Science: Generally considered as some for of Mass Driver. For this reason, it is understood that AutoCannons use magnetic forces to propel a solid, dense object called a 'slug' at extreme speeds. Generally, the most widely used material for the slugs is Tungsten, though other metals can be used. In the present, AutoCannon equivalents can only fire 1 round at a time, overheat quite quickly, and either damage themselves with each shot fired (Railguns) or are ineffecient or inaccurate (Coilguns/Gauss cannons). However they are a new technology, so these results are expected to improve.
Fiction: Sins AutoCannons, aside from the unusual and generally non-descriptive name, hold quite true to what can be construed to be feasible technology 1000+ years from now. There is, however, one flaw in the theory or ACs being Mass Drivers, in that on stage of TEC AC research entails advancement in Cartrige Propellants, indicating that AutoCannons are, in fact, just that - large, automatically reloading and re-firing Cannons like those you would find on a tank or artillery piece, though, given the scale of Sins, a much larger weapon round size, perhaps up to 220mm or greater, could be expected.
Lasers
Science: Lasers are concentrated beams of light which, through bombarding the target with charged particles, create massive amounts of heat and thereby damage the target. Lasers can be generated in a number of ways, and it is unclear how Lasers in Sins are generated. It can be assumed, however, that the generation methods differ between Advent and TEC, due to the different damage outputs and effeciencies, and, of course, the colour of the beam.
Fiction: In Sins, TEC Lasers are short, red lines that travel from the ship to the target at a relatively leisurely pace. This is not accurate as it is a known fact that in a vacuum, Lasers travel at the speed of light, and so you wouldnt see the laser leave the 'barrel' and hit the target in a short line like we do, rather, you would see something more akin to Sins Beam weaponry. Even though in the game they are called Pulse Lasers, such a differentiation would simply mean that the laser would fire multiple times in quick succession over a short period, rather than a long, sustained burst. They would, however, remain similar in appearance to Beam weponry.
Missiles
Science: Missiles are generally considered nowadays to refer to Single- or Multi-Stage, self-propelled explosive devices. Generally straight-forward, Missiles burn fuel to propel themselves at great speed towards a target, where, depending on the type of missile, it will either explode, or, in the case of TEC Missiles and the LRF Cluster Bombs ability upgrade, release multiple smaller warheads, capable of dealing potentially greater damage over a larger area to more targets. Missiles can have a any of a number of different guidance systems, on-board or relayed, than enable the missile to home in on its target more effectively. It is assumed, since missiles fired from a ship that has since been destroyed do not fly off harmlessly or detonate, that TEC missiles use on-board guidance systems, although it is possible those systems are simply backups for main targetting systems relying on the more powerful sensors on the host ship.
Fiction: Many science fiction universes show space battles as (relatively speaking) close range affairs, where lasers, guns, cannons, railguns, missiles, energy blasts etc are all being fired from within visual range. However, other universes suggest space battles be a matter of fleets sitting thousands, millions or even lightminutes away from each other, firing missiles into the void and hoping that you dont get hit by an even bigger volley in return. Even todays missiles can fire into space or at targets half way around the world. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to assume that with the vacuum in space, improved propellants, and longer ranged sensors, that this reality may not come true. The answer to that question, however, is yet to be seen and cannot be answered simply.
On another note, all missiles in Sins appear able to turn at incredible angles, effectively on the spot. Its like driving a car at 200 kp\h and making a 90 degree right turn within 10 meters. This is of course false, but can be attributed to a graphical and computational glitch which does not negatively affect gameplay, and so is left alone.
Beams
Science: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or neutrons (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing. Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. High energy beams are created in particle accelerators, in which a charged particle is drawn forward by an electrostatic (not magnetic) field with a charge opposite to the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes the source of each field, the charge of the field is reversed so that the particle is now pushed on to another field source. Through a series of fields in sequence, the particle accelerates until it is moving at a high speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.
Fiction: Since Weaponised Particle Beams are not widespread at present (though they do exist and have been experimented with since 1958), it is difficult to say whether Sins Particle Beams, both TEC and Advent, are accurate representations. One question is, though, whether real Particle Beams would, in fact, appear as they do in Sins, rather than something akin to lightening.
Advent:
Science: Advent Lasers would be very similiar in method of generation and power output to TEC Lasers. The term blue laser is frequently applied to semiconductor laser diode based on gallium nitride. These new devices have applications in many areas ranging from optoelectronic data storage at high-density to medical applications. The shorter wavelength allows the laser to transfer much more information that a standard red laser.
Fiction: Modern Blue Lasers are used mainly for Telecommunications, IT, Medical and Environmental monitoring systems, and projectors. At present, no weaponised forms exist or are predicted, though in 1000+ years, this can certainly change. Also, by the same token that TEC Lasers are not accurate representations, so too are Advent Lasers, in that they should travel from ship to target at the speed of light (effectively instantly).
Science: Advent Beams would be very similar to TEC Beams in terms of basic physics, however, the 'sharpness' of the beam indicates a greatly improved effeciency, and, therefore, power and damage output.
Fiction: Once again, it is unclear if Sins Particle Beams are accurate representations. Similarly to TEC Beams, however, it is unclear if Sins Beam effects are accurate.
Plasma
Science: Plasma weapons use a small nuclear reactor or fuel cell or other type of advanced energy storage device to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, very energetic excited matter).Plasma-based weaponry is any group of weapons designed to use high-energy ionized gas or "plasma", typically created by superheating lasers or superfrequency devices. The primary damage mechanism of these fictional weapons is usually thermal transfer; it typically causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. In certain fiction, plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage
Fiction: As Plasma Weapons do not yet exist outside of Science Fiction, it is difficult to determine if plasma weapons in Sins are accurate representations. However, it is understandable that plasma, if charged to a high enough level, would do damage to the shields and hull of a ship.
Psionic Surge
Science: These weapons are unique to Sins of a Solar Empire, and do not exist in reality or other popular works of Science Fiction. As such, there is no real 'Science" to speak of. However, Canon explains Advent Psionic Surges as concentrated Psychic Energy being deployed against targets in the form of a large blue cone shaped blast. This weapon is the only Advent weapon that can change course while in flight to the target.
Fiction: It is unclear how psychic energy can cause physical damage to a target. it is assumed, however, that the weird space/time anomalies (such as possible powerful shifts in gravity, power surges and EMP-like blasts) could cause a ship to be damaged or destroyed.
Vasari
Vasari weapons (with the exception of Phase Missiles) are entirely the stuff of fiction. As such, there is very little in the way of science, however, here is some Canon to base assumptions from.
Pulse Guns (Plasma)
Science: Unfortunately, my rather interesting, inspired (in my opinion) speculation on the science behind Pulse Guns seems to have been overturned by the simple fact that in the Game Manual, Pulse Guns are referred to as Plasma Pulse Guns. For this reason, it is understood that Pulse Guns operate in much the same way as Advent Plasma Cannons, except on a smaller scale (and perhaps more effecient yet with a lower damage output). However, the inaccuracy of the weapon and haphazard trajectory of each blast - congruent with the style of Advent Plasma Weapons (which, naturally, we know to be without a doubt plasma based) - would support this fact.
Fiction: Certain Science Fiction Universes hold Weaponised Plasma to be an ultimate weapon, due to its massive damage output and high accuracy. While Sins holds true to the massive damage output (at least in the case of Advent Plasma weapons... Vasari Pulse Gun equivalents leave much to be desired...), the high accuracy is one convention not held to. The reasoning of the high accuracy is that electro-magnetic manipulation of the plasma can continue even once the bolt has left the weapon, and as such can have its flight trajectory altered mid-flight. This, however, does not seem to be the case with Sins. Also, the odd colouring of Vasari Plasma weapons does not seem to hold true to most traditions, as plasma is generally depicted in whites, blues, violets and similar colours, rather than the Vasari green
Pulse Beams
Science: Again, it is unclear how Pulse Beams actually work. Once again, the name is non-descript, however the each word does give some clues. It is possible that the Pulse Beam is simply a standard Particle Beam, simply pulse-fired intead of in a constant stream. However, I, personally, like a bit of variety, and for that reason, my opinion is that Pulse Beams are either some form of Neutron Particle Accelerator (yes, its a Particle Beam, but not exactly the same as TEC and Advent Beams) or a Hard Radiation Directed Energy Weapon, that takes hard radiation like gamma rays, and fires them in a concentrated blast at the target.
Fiction: The above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Phase Missiles
Science: It would appear that Phase Missiles are very similar to standard TEC Missiles when you get down to the basics. However, aside from a possibly much greater damage potential due to advanced Vasari technology, their main strength lies in their ability to bypass enemy target shields completely and deal damage directly to the hull. This is done by temporarily shifting the missile to Phase Space, and out of the same 'dimension' or 'space/time' as the target shields, thereby passing right through them with no ill effects. Once bypassing the shield, the missiles are free to detonate on or near the target hull, dealing damage as a normal missile. It is important to note the Phase Missiles only have a 30% chance to bypass [shields], though this may be improved through research.
Fiction: Logically speaking, the science of Phase Missiles seems pretty strong. However, questions remain as to the effectiveness of the weapon. If the weapon can shift into phase space, why cant the Vasari sit a fleet on their homeworld and fire Phase Missiles at targets in other Gravity Wells, thereby removing any threat of retaliation from enemy forces? Some poeple credit this with the small size of the missile requiring a very small and potentially ineffecient (and therefore extremely short lived) Phase Drive within the missile, meaning that the missile can only be in Phase Space for a short period (possibly to the degree of a fraction of a second) before returning to normal space.
If the weapon can bypass shields, why not the hull as well? A few, well aimed missiles fired at the Bridge, Engine Room, Reactor Room, Ammo Cache, and other Targets of Opportunity, would destroy any and every targetted ship with minimal fuss and cost. This is explained with the same reason a Phase Missile cannon be fired from a planet away, as the Phase Drives within the missile may not have the sustainability to breach the shield AND hull.
Why not a single missile loaded with a biological weapon, fired into the Life Support Systems, and detonating, killing all crew on board while salvaging the ship? With the 30% chance to bypass, ideally the Vasari would have to fire more than 3 times the number of missiles to ensure a sufficient number penetrated, with 70% of missile impacting harmlessly on the hull.
With such an effective and versatile weapon, it is also unclear why the Vasari utilise other types of weapons, however, many people believe that Phase Missiles would be relatively expensive, both in terms of actual cost and space requirements for the missiles within each ship. It is also believed that the Vasari have other weapons due to the threat of an enemy being able to counter the effectiveness of Phase Missiles (such technology is evident in the TEC Kol Battleship's Adaptive Forcefield ability), thereby rendering a Vasari fleet all but entirely harmless.
Wave Cannons (Plasma)
Science: Like most other Vasari weapons, it is unclear how Wave Cannons work, though in the game manual calls them Plasma Wave Cannons. The wave in the name, in fact, references the appearance of the blast generated by the weapon. Wave Cannons are held to be the most powerful and advanced Vasari ship-based weapon, being utilised only on their Heavy Cruiser and Capital Ships. There is no Science nor Canon (other than the name in the game manual) to explain anything about these weapons, however many theories have been made, including that the weapon is a 'shell' acting like a missile or rocket, or that it is some type of highly advanced Plasma Weapon. Another theory is that it is some form of Directed-Energy weapon similar to a Microwave Generator, but rather than generating Microwaves, generates a series of particles or 'signal' that disrupts the target at the molecular level, thereby damaging and destroying the very materials the target is made out of. Personally, I consider Wave Cannons to be a type of Plasma, Particle or Directed-Energy Weapon, though I am open to suggestions and explanations. It would seem, however, that the majority of the community believes Wave Cannons are a form of Plasma Cannon, much more similar to the Advent Plasma Cannon than the Pulse Gun, in both sophistication and damage output.
Disintegrators
Science: The name Disintegrators describes the effect of the weapon, not so much about the method of how the damage is inflicted. One theory is that Disintegrators affect the target at a molecular level, effectively disintegrating the very molecules of the target and causing it to fall apart like sand.
Fiction: Molecular Manipulation Weapons only exists in Science Fiction, However, as we dont not know that Disintegrators are MMW's, we cannot compare the two. However, even more advanced that simply disconnecting molecules is the re-arraging of them to form a new structure, or to destabilise an existing one. For instance, use of an MMW to use the very molecules of the bulkheads or hull to create an explosive device or biological weapon within the target, or to turn the target itself into an explosive device. Alternatively, using an MMW to disintegrate the crew of a ship, leaving the ship unmanned for pilaging. Another example is to simply breach the hull of the ship near the bridge, or breach the ships reactor shielding by disintegrating the molecules that make up the shielding. These types of attacks are incredibly deadly, simple, effective, and, most of all, generally uncounterable. However, once again, the above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Yet to come:
Explanations of: Shields and Shield Mitigation, Hull and Armor, Engines, Phase Drives, Super Weapons Abilities.
Also: Accepting suggestions for other topics, and,
Please tell me if I've made any grievous spelling errors. Thanks.
So what about the existence of strike craft, being low-mass ships which have much smaller engines than larger ships, and yet move much faster? What role does mass play in space?
um... what?
what are you referring to? or are you suggesting a new topic?
For a constant amount of force, a lower mass will cause an object to have a greater acceleration than one with a higher mass according to Newton's Second Law. Consequently, lighter objects are capable of moving and stopping more quickly than massive objects and can be propelled to higher velocities with the same amount of energy input/output.
Nice thread!
thankyou!
You really seem to have a lot of spare time, dude
Very nicely done for you.
IMHO, having a reasonable explaination for a space fantasy game is good. It provides some background and wieght to the story other than "it just works".
Then again you can pull a star wars and get carried away and try to explain every little detail (thanks wookieepedia). Seriously, an explaination on the complete history, layout, modifications, armaments, and former crew of the Millennium Falcon really needed that badly?
Getting bogged down with details is annoying and anyone with a highschool diploma understands in some way that much of it is impossible anyways.
It's probably not much of an answer, but Phase Missiles might be only a fairly recent inovation to the Vasari Exodus Fleet. This is considering that it's shield bypassing is only at best, 30% effective. I highly doubt that the missiles are technologically advanced enough to take out individual areas of the ship with a good hit chance. Also in-game, Phase Missiles look like they have less range than other long-range weapons (TEC Missiles and Advent Beams, for example). The rather low chance of shield penetration also would explain the lack of biological Phase Missiles; the bypass chance is too low to be feasable.
Nonetheless, this is an excellent post.
bookmark for self; I like it.
What about the bombing weapons though? TEC is pretty simple, just bombing a planet with nukes; the Advent look like the have giant railguns (they fire Kinetic Bolts, the only kinetic weapon of theirs) at planets.
but the Vas have giant beams? What's up with that?
For the Phase Missiles, I think a simple explanation is that the phase drives mounted on them are one-time use systems that quickly burn themselves out. Used on the shields/mitigation shields, it has nothing left for the hull. Larger missiles may or may not be feasible for whatever reason.
N3rull, I've seen Independence Day. It's one of my favorite movies. But it just seems odd that the Vasari would get GI-ANT BEEMS OV DHUUM to kill planets, when the TEC get Nukes and, for all intents&purposes, the Advent have giant linear-acceleration weapons.
I see nothing odd about it. It's different. It's unique. It's doesn't suck ass too much.It's ok.
well, yes it's different/unique, and I think it looks nice, but it was just a little odd to me.
Guess I just prefer the idea of raining death from above with projectiles, which are more reliable than beam weapons. Beams can have bloom issues, and lose power; projectiles can be intercepted, but if you launch them fast enough, not likely.
Uh... in practice Vasari do mass phase missile units
Nice looking foward to seeing how shields work, of course, they won't be trek shields but...
The Vasari race is extremely genre-savvy and knows that evil alien conquerors are supposed to scare people with their monument-destroying lasers?
Don't forget that the phase missiles do not bypass the charged particles that the shield generators leave on the hull known as shield mitigation.
Maybe thats another reason why the missiles dont just bypass the hull, and perhaps shield mitigation has something to do with phase space.
As far as mitigation blocking PM's... In the book I'm writing, there are three layers of defense.
Active Shields: These things require bulky generators, but can neutralize almost any incoming threat. The energy required for use is immense, so their use should only be in the milliseconds before you actually get hit. Active Composite Plasma Shields are generally regarded as indestructible. By combining powerful computers, you can tune the shield to the incoming particles, negating even more damage. Doing so allowed a femto-class generator to negate the damage of the axial cannon of a Lancer Class Republic vessel.
Notes: ACPS's are projected out away from the unit using it as anything that the shield comes in contact with is vaporized or absorbed instantly.
Passive Shields: While not nearly as indestructible as active shields are, Passive Cold Plasma Shields do offer quite a bit of protection versus many forms of fire. While they only offer limited defense against projectiles and other "hard" weapons, they can generally mitigate all but the most powerful energy weapons. As with ACPS's, PCPS's can be combined with computer mainframes to allow for shield harmonization which yields a decreases in damage taken.
Notes: PCPS's are projected just milimeters away in the case of suits and about ten meters in the case of ships as contact with the shield will not damage the user.
Armor Plating: Unlike the others which can regenerate any holes almost instantly, AP takes a very long time to self-repair unless counting "Blob Suits," although, due to their almost liquid nature, they can fail to deflect rounds as normal armor can. AP is generally best suited for projectile and concussion weapons as passive shields can fail to neutralize these threats.
Notes: Recently, a new material referred to as Dawn Composite was created which itself can absorb virtually any threat. The material itself is hyper-magnetic over short distances, causing beam and most projectile weapons to deflect before impact even occurs. The rather open spaces of the material are filled with nanites which constantly rebuild it and can if necessary, turn themselves into the composite to heal the "wound."
The point is, pretty much all forms of defense have some sort of field. Simply put, the more dense the target material and the material to be phased, the more difficult and the more likely that it will stop short.
Hmmm
VERY interesing, very nice to do this
HOWEVER!
I am a physics major, entering my second year, and I have some disuputes with what you say.
Mostly, you do a very good job, especialy concerning lasers and missiles
but, I have issues with the way you described beams and plasma weapons.
...I wont even touch vassari, for obvious reasons...
Beams-
I VERY much disagree with your definition of beams. I see a beam as a bunch of moving stuff that roughly forms a cylender shape.
Like a beam of light. (which is nither charged, nor is nuetrons, so it doesn't exist acording to your definition)
Just the other day, I was putting WD40 on a latch in my truck, I had put on the straw attachment, and was rather amused, becouse I was creating a "Beam" of WD40.
I WILL LUBERCATE YOU TO DEATH!!
anyway...my point is, I think that you are being to strict in your definition of beams. I always fancy beam weaponry as shooting plasma (like off of the game Homeworld). But as you say, it could just as easily be positrons. (that would make an evil weapon...)
About lightning, acording to my definition, lightning is NOT a beam. Plus, lightning is purly an atmospheric phenominon, and can NOT happen in space.
Plasma-
Um...I'm going to try to be nice, but....you have issues with plasma as well. Again, you are FAR to strict in your definition.
Simply put, plasma is just really HOT stuff. Fire is the most commonly experienced form (on earth) of plasma. Next is the plasma produced by lightning.
Plasma weapons have been around longer than recorded history, we call them flame throwers. Or, flaming arrows...ect.
You want a cool plasma weapon? Dip a Nerf ball in gasoline and launch it from a potato cannon.
This means that plasma weapons do not require nuclear reactors, lasers, or super-frequency devices (What are Super-frequency devices??)
You want a REALY cool plasma effect? possibly the predisesor to the advent plasma weapon? stick a match in a microwave.
(look up "Microwave Ball Lightning" on google video)
anyway, apart from those two little nitpicks, very nice read.
You're just trying to get me in trouble, aren't you? Both of those sound like waaay too much fun to be safe, and/or legal. (The legal part is mostly refering to the nerf ball+gasoline+potato cannon. Somehow, I don't think shooting that off in a neighborhood is a good idea )
Anyway, on topic, nice job!
@N3Rull, i actually did this over a few days before i went to sleep... but im glad you like it
@Jedmonds, yeah, i dont intend to explain everything down to crew compliments etc (thats the sins wiki's job), i just wanted to create a one-stop shop for some generally agreed upon definitions and explanations of Sins Technology.
@Whiskey, thanks for the idea to do bombing weapons, i didnt think of those. Now, as to why Vasari have weird beams. Just to be simple, assuming those beams are some sort of Particle Beam, then its not so different from Advent Kinetic Bolts... Kinetic Bolts are heavy slugs shot at the planet at great speeds to create the biggest bunker-buster ever, (i use the term very lightly though) and inflict massive damage. Vasari Planetary Bombardment Particle Cannons do the same, except with tiny particles, which do even more damage upon impact with the surface of the planet.
Alternatively, if it tickles your fancy, just think of the Replicator Beam Weapon used in Stargate: Atlantis
As for Vasari Phase Missiles, all very good ideas, ill incorporate them into the post.
@Darvin, yes they do, but the question is, why dont all Vasari ships use only Phase Missiles... someone said Phase Missiles have a 30% chance to bypass, but 30% of a potential 500,000 incoming missiles is ALOT. (500,000 based on a large fleet size fully maxed with the optimal loadout of Vasari ships all fitted with PM's only)
@Evil-Tesla
Fair enough, but i dont see a beam of lubricant being all that damaging.... a beam of protons (light) could be damaging yes, but i would consider that more a type of laser than a "beam weapon" such that it is.
for your reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_Cannon is my source for most of that topic. as for the Lightening effect, i was referencing an natural analogy to how particle cannons work. Yes, Lightening may not work in space, but an artificial particle cannon could and would, and who knows if the visual side effects of iring that weapon appears like lightening?
also, as for why i chose Particle Cannons instead of say, Positron Cannons, is due to the visual effect in game. You are more likely to have such a visual with Particle Cannons than anything else. I figured; well, the name is pretty ambiguous, so i may as well choose something understandable and stick with it. it may not be a perfect fit, but its good.
well, i have to be strict in my definitions, otherwise whats the point? Sins itself is already loose enough, the idea of this thread is to hopefully give a one-stop shop with the most agreed upon definitions and explanations of Sins Technology.
However, i think im especially justified here, in that Sins Plasma Weapons dont look like flame throwers... rather they look like they have super-heated a partially ionised gas (the plasma itself) via whatever means (subjecting it to an electric current or otherwise) and then applying an electromagnetic force to shape and propel the plasma at a target, causing thermal, kinetic, and possible electromagnetic (EMP-esque) damage. As with (Particle) Beams, i made an assumption based on the weapon effect in-game.
Once again, remember it is Science-Fiction, and if you still have problems justifying it, remember the races in Sins have had 1000+ years to develop their weapons.
NOTE: Id like to state here that, while i realised i asked for sugestions, corrections and addendums etc to the post, i will usually defend what i have posted in the OP for the simple reason that i find debate is the best way to flesh out who/what is correct. For instance, Evil-Tesla nit-picked my definitions, but simply said they are too strict without giving a solution, which is cool, so i explained them a bit more, and explained why i chose those definitions etc. Hopefully, this debate will prompt Evil-Tesla to reply and through that we will find what definition is the most accurate
so, basically, im not being a troll defending my OP, im just trying to get the best answer.
In any case, thanks for the support everybody
So my question was this. Is is realistic that a smaller ship can, with a much smaller engine, move much faster than a big ship with huge engines? i.e., does mass apply on this scale in space?
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account