For me it was the options: there were so many different spells, dozens of traits you could assign (the one I could never do without was alchemy!) the races were so diverse, it just provided hundreds of combinations that kept the game fresh thru dozens of games!
So how is EWOM measuring up to it's spiritual predecessor? At first there was a large amount of disappointment in lack of race diversity, but other than graphical similarity, the dozen races slated for the canon game could easily provide the same gameplay differences (if not graphical ones). And there obviously will be a large spellbook even in the canon game, which will surely expand quickly as user created content becomes available.
The one area we have nto heard a ton about is whatever anaolgy of MoM's traits make it into the game. There will surely be pre-game setup of your channeler, but we have not heard a lot of details as far as to how many and what kinds of options there will be. If this can be done well, I think that is the foundation of what will determine if this is the game that future 4x games are measured against.
300 pages of, 'This sucks. MoM was better.' would not be useful.
On the other hand, 300 pages of people talking about why one game was better might give the Devs plenty of ideas on how to make their game better.
Forum double posted my post. Sry about that.
I wouldn't say that the "Character creation" in MoM was some sort spectacularly deep thing, HOWEVER it is one of the most strategic elements to the game. It is a lot like selecting which cards to put into your magic deck before playing a match.
For me, the components of Elemental that I think make it more akin to Master of Magic than other titles are these particular things:
1. Massive faction customization.
2. Massive character customization.
3. Randomly generated worlds.
4. Building of your own cities.
5. Researching techs and spells.
On Monday, we will be revealing a major new component that we think people will find extremely compelling.
Posted by Legerdemain:
Absolutely! 4 of those things could tear through 9 of the blue dragons that protected the best spirit nodes on Myrror, and net you a couple new spellbooks.
I think that was one of the best parts for me in MOM; that I could hunt around in dungeons on the overland map, and find new spellbooks to improve my wizard. The whole thing of putting cities near precious resources (like adamantium on Myrror) was what made the game so great (and unbalanced, if the truth be told).
Winni
For me it was the spells. Although not perfectly balanced, but they were fun, clever and stylish. The different spell lines were very distinct from each other. Death sacrificed population for mana, Sorcery could shut down an enemy wizard's own spells, Chaos gave you raw firepower, etc. Compare MoM's spells to those of Age of Wonders. AoW spells were generic in flavor and not very different between each elemental sphere. I'd happily to play a fantasy TBS with minimal unit variety as long as the spells were cool.
YES cool and truly diverse. not just "firebolt" vs. "ice bolt" vs. "earth bolt" vs. "lightning bolt". That and the ability to change the game so fundamentally and with so many combinations at setup. I am not encouraging people to forget EWOM and download MoM (OK if you have never played MoM yes, I am! At least the download MoM part!) And I don;t want to set StarDock up to battle an undefeatable nostalgia monster. I just want the awesome parts of MoM (and a dozen other games) to shine thru to make EWOM the standard that future TBS games are measured against.
Sounds good!!! When will we get screenshots and movie. Does PAX start on monday?
Oh mah ****ing salivary glands! and tear ducts!
Really? You really think people reading this will think downloading a game that is 15 years old is better than buying a brand new game?
I don't think that's realistic.
For that matter, where can you get MoM for free in a form you can play? It's ancient. Does it even work on Windows XP or Vista?
Balance can be overrated. I liked the fact that some races were just harder to play.
Trying to force balance can also sometimes mean you have to sacrafice diversity. The easiest way to make sure all races are balanced is to make all races the same.
Age of Wonders, a game I love, had this problem where the races felt too similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Wonders#Races_and_their_Units
All 12 races had the same number of units, and most were the same type or filled the same roles.
Some races shouldn't get heavy hitters. It means you have to play fast to win. Some races should have weak ranged attackers. Some might not be able to use magic as well. (Although I don't think that will be an issue here, as magic seems a lot more... rare that in MoM. There will be no army of Doombolt casting Dark Elves, for instance.)
It's cruel to tease us like that. But I will definitely be coming back on Monday.
a ) any abandonware site
b ) there's always DOSBox
I didn't need to go to a) as I have the original CD but needed b ) to run he game. I just got to refrain myself from playing fullscreen as it looks ugly as hell on my widescreen 27".
Can't wait! Yay!
Did any of you guys really play Master of Magic? And if you did did you play it on anything higher than EASY or ULTRA EASY? lol
The AI DID learn patterns and did put Guardian Wind on stacks coming at me when I was using Ultra Slingers and/or Archers.
I'm really wondering what version of MOM you all played. Did you get the update 1.31?? lol
That was one of the things I found great about MOM was it's ability to adjust to how I created my armies. But, I always played on Hard or Impossible difficulty from the start. I always played with MAX AI opponents also. I'd usually play death lord so I knew all of them would be against me also and usually quickly from the start. Had to have my Ghouls and Lycanthropes.
So if you never played Hard or most especially Impossible difficulty I suggest you go back and experience the best fantasy wargame ever made.
Braggart!
OHHHH I KNOW having FAMILIES and DYNASTIES with marriages and deaths and heirs??? Like Crusader Kings. That would be so kewl it'd be like Lord of the Rings when the son of man gets it on with the elven princess. Liv Tyler man <sigh>
Awwww I like Doombolt casting Dark Elves...no wait it was DOOMBATS in MOM...nevermind.
I often hear the word nostalgia applied to old games such as MoM as if it were some kind of label that discredits the game. Personally, I've experienced nostalgia with a lot of old games I played when I was younger and many of those memories were tarnished when I replayed them and had the veil lifted from my eyes.
This was not the case with MoM, since I had never played it until 2 years ago, long after I'd played many other turn-based strategy games (Civ series, Alpha Centauri, etc). With all of that experience in other games, how did MoM fare? It's definitely not nostalgia, it is legitimately better!
Having said that, I also want more games of this type to be made, however I don't think that's very realistic. Turn-based games are niche for whatever reason, particularly in the western world.
I'll be happy if Elemental is made in an extremely flexible, moddable fashion so that all of the games we want to see can be created as mods. Just think of how amazing and successful Warcraft 3 was due to all of the mods people created, including at least one that spawned a brand new genre of games (DoTA anyone?).
DoTA? Never heard of it.
Other great things about MOM is it's a simple game with a lot of meat and potatoes. Each building and unit brought new things to be able to do. The spell book was filled with wonderful little early spells to play with until you got to the the really monster ones. The Shadow Lord man that thing was awesome. Giant basilisks and of course the dreaded Sky Drakes. I think those things were the most powerful units in the game. I played 100's of games of MOM and I still bet you I haven't seen it all in that game. Especially all the magical items that could be found or made.
And of course I will always think one of the most overpowering spells and cheap to get was Counter Magic. You could get it from the start and pretty much shut down any caster with it every battle. It was so overpowering I finally made it an ironman rule I couldn't use it. lol I sure missed it too when I couldn't use it. lol
The truely great thing about MOM though is the imbalance of the races as it should be. Worlds aren't built or created with all things being "equal" that's what is wrong with most of these other wannabe MOM games. AOW is about balance because of Multiplayer, HOMM is about balance and too hero centric, lose that level 10 hero and it's over for you dude. If I wanted to play a fantasy chess game I'd just get out my fantasy chess game and play it.
I want to play against superior odds as a real fantasy world would be. I want there to be a Master of Magic, A Diablo from Hell, or my greatest Nightmare revealed and I have to face it. The world should be like an rpg game. It shouldn't be linear and loot and magic spells and things should be deep down in caverns and crypts in the game you have to explore and defeat great monsters and creatures to get. Like MOM did.
One thing I did like from AOW was the explorable caves and crypts and dungeons that was kewl like an rpg adventure while playing a fantasy wargame. Not great for MP of course lol but, that's why these games should be made strictly for SOLO play. That way they can put stuff like that in the game.
I agree psychoravin, having balance be the goal has probably been one of the biggest things that has undermined any MoM wanna-bes. I played the demo of Dominion III and that looked pretty promising also.
I don't have any illusions that this going going to be just like MoM, frankly I have hopes that it is going to surpass MoM just because of the quality of games StarDock has put out. I hope and half expect that EWOM will be the bar that future TBS and especially fantasy TBS will be measured against.
Defense of The Ancients (DoTA) is the most played video game "mod" in the world. You should check it out, it's a lot of fun.
--snip--
This is the one big reason I really worry about this game. Like you said, MoM is amazing because it is so simple and yet has a lot of meat and potatoes. I fear that situation is a rather delicate one that might be ruined easily by a designer who simply looks at each feature in MoM and thinks "more? more is better!".
More is not always better, just take a look at Master of Orion 3 to see a disaster that can result from such thinking.
Well here's my idea about it:
1) It should be simple enough to play a 10 year old could start playing immediately with just a little coaching. My 10 year old son loved MOM and still plays it even today. It was really his first pc wargame he ever played. Now he plays it on easy or normal all the time because he likes all the easy goodies he gets out of the crypts and dungeons and caves and the easy leaders that want to join him. I can still see that cheshire catlike grin on his face as he used to play it and go into those batttles.
2) The battles themselves should be quick and simple yet complex enough that a more mature player could find challenge and fun out of them based on difficulty of course. MOM has such a simple combat engine but challenge enough from the almost perfect balance of non-balanced troups. At least some battles should scare the player. I don't know how many times I had to run around for 25 turns to save myself and my city or that particular leader/unit.. Yeah I know what was one of the gamey tactics in MOM that should have been patched out. I never really did care for it, but, welp I just said if you can't beat the join them. In Elemental I would hope there are exit arrows for all the combatants. If I had to gripe about MOM that would be the feature I'd gripe about is the defender could only get out of the battle by running around for 25 turns and surviving. It just made those battles long and tedious.
3) The world vs you complex: MOM had this and did it very well especially if you played a Death wizard. Nothing upsets me more in these other wannabe's when the ai continously attacks itself and I'm winning the scenario. This comes to the overcoming the odds feature of MOM. All the AI's once a player gets ahead of them by say 10 cities or nodes should automatically ally and go after the player. All my games of MOM I got this kind of action and once again that's another element that made it fun and great.
4) Fun surprises in those caves, crypts and dungeons. It was always an excitement wondering what the prize was going to be after a tough battle in these caves, crypts and dungeons. Lol sometimes it was craptastic and most times it was pretty neat stuff and what was also great about it is that what you got was also based on the DIFFICULTY of the game. So, the higher difficulty you played the less you got. I loved that part. If I'm wanting a tougher challenge the last thing I want to get is the "sword of everslaying" after defeating a handful of zombies. But, if you played the easy game a lot of times that's what you got. Great for kids and great for experienced wargamers who want challenge.
5) Which brings us to number five. All the elements must be so great that a 10 year old will love it as well as an experienced wargamer. Now that's a feat no other fantasy wargame out there can compete with MOM with. It's really in putting enough difficulty levels and barriers in the game for the experienced player. Finding the perfect balance of power(s) in an imperfect world and allowing the player(s) to experience a world of their own and no two games ever being the same. Having cost and upkeep be so perfect that the player can never really overwhelm the ai easily.
6) This is something I would add to MOM just to make it more challenging. The futher you are away from your own territory the more it costs for upkeep and control of your units and summoned units. I recently played a little game called "Conquest":Medieval Realms and I was overwhelmed with the way supply works in this game and how a losing player can defeat the winning player if he just works and attacks that supply line. If the supply line is broken the other players loses ALL units in front of the break. What a wonderful little game this is. I would like to see more supply line rules in Elemental to almost if not this point that out of supply out of units in front of the break.
I don't think that's going to happen. I think you will see comparisons, but I think Elemental will at the very least have some good points when compared to MoM.
And if Elemental is weaker than MoM, then that's Stardock's fault, not the people doing the comparison.
I firmly agree.The truth is in the words...
Karma given.
You are missing one key ingrediate. Balance.
AoW was geared towards balance. Every race could build every building. Every race had the same number of units. Most had the same types and the same strengths.
MoM, on the other hand, was all about diversity. That's a game concept that I fear is dead.
In Multi-player games you must have balance, and multiplayer is what sells most games. Therefore, Balance is King. bal
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