I was thinking about the previous post on LF vs LRMs and I thought of a situation that might make Lf worthwhile. I've never played online so I've never been able to test it against players, but i was thinking, what could a Lf do against a LRM if the Lf got into range before taking ANY damage? none, zero, neither shield or hull damage.
If that would make a Lf work against Lrms then i have a suggestion: what if a Lrm blob could be lured to where a Lf fleet could simply phase in from another planet RIGHT ON TOP OF THEM so they're already in range? would that make Lf use more practical?
it doenst matter the range lrms do tons of dmg to lfs and lfs even when in range cant take down lrms fast enough. to kill lrms you need about double the coblats or any other lf.
The only way i think this could possibly work is if you kept the LFs behind the LRFs. Needless to say, that would be a daunting amount of micromanagment. And in the end, you're most likley to lose most of your LFs in the process. An idea would be to split the LFs into two groups and try and turn the enemy LRFs depending on who they focus-fire on and stay behind them that way. Generaly though, its best to leave LRM crushing to the fighters and HCs imho.
Kudos to you. You have the mind of an online player. Probably a pretty decent one too with some practice.
Anywho, while the idea is a good one, the problem is that LRF's are the intended counter to light frigs. The damage multiplier against light frigs should probalby be lowered by 25% considering the dps of lrf's is high to begin with.
Anywho, lf's are countered by lrf's. Ideally, lrf's should be fragile (like an archer in any orther medival rts u may have played), so they can be destroyed easily by something that gets up close. Nay Nay. This is not the case. LF's get a 75% multiplier against lrf's (as they should, lrf's counter lf's). LRF's are so ungodly tough as well that nothing except for fighters, hc's, or other lrfs will take them down.
One additional problem. Bring enough flak with lrf's, fighters go away as an option.
One more problem: If the lrf's spammed are Illums, the only option to beat it in order of effectiveness is Other Illums, Kodies/Destras, LRMS, Enforcers, Assailants. If there are no flak fighters are an option, but flak are always there. And fighters die like crazy to them.
Bottom line. Currently lrf's do 2X the damage that lf's do to lrf's. Add in the fact taht lrf's are tougher than lf's to begin with, and you have......an op unit.
Cross your fingers for a patch that balances the game.
I always thought it was strange that a so called long range unit was so effective at close range (save the Illums as the closer they are the better chance that all of their side beams can fire). While I guess this is becuase range isn't as important in sins as in other RTS's (unless guardians are involved), it is the source of almost all the claims of OP for LRMs. Your strategy would work if LRM's had a minimum range, though I don't see IC adding that again because of the Illum (Missiles I could see having minimum range, laser beams not so much).
Actually I used this tactic but in reverse. I would use juicy carriers to lure LFs to the edge of the map, then jump in illuminators and tear the light frigates to pieces! Why would I do this? Well enemy had a lot of carriers so if I started off with all my ships in play, he would decimate my illuminators before i culd close the distance. This way I amde him think he had the advantage and he sent the light frigates after my carriers.
Nice, Astax. I'll have to keep that tactic in mind...
I did the same thing the other day. 2v2 all Vasari, I dropped an Orky 1 jump away from my nearest enemies HW in an asteroid belt, it was alone and had been damaged from an ealry battle when my enemies ally jumped in with 10 carriers full of fighters. My Orky gave chase, but the carriers started circling the well, and the fighters were slowly wearing it down. I sent in 15 LFs to head them off, the he jumped in two LVL3 space eggs, a handful of LFs and some Sentinels to take apart my LFs. Thats when I jumped in 10 Carriers loaded with docked bombers. and let them sit for a second. As predicted he sent his sentinels and LFs at my carriers, and his Eggs to take apart my Orky with Nanos. THe LFs closed in on my carriers when I jumped in my assailants, who promptly shredded those LFs. He pulled his fighters off my Orky to bring down my assailants, who were now charging his carriers to help finish the job my LFs started, thats when I launched my bombers to take out his eggs. Success! Both eggs down, 5 carriers destroyed, and he's limping home with the reamining 5 carriers and a couple of sentinels.
Actually I think if unit A counters unit B, then unit B should not be the counter for unit A. So since LRFs are the counter for LF I see no sense in using LFs to counter LRFs.
In my eyes the problem is that LRFs are massed because there is only one viable counter (fighters). And this counter is easily nullified with flags and fighters.
So adding another viable counter to LRFs could lead to broader fleet compositions. I think increasing the damage of scouts from 3dps to maybe 5 or 6 dps would do the job. Scouts still are fragile and do the least amount of damage but due to their speed and damage multiplier (200% vs light) these ships could shred LRFs to pieces.
Yay, more powerful scouts!!!!
okay I give you that one, this would most likely lead to "scout rushs only".
Another idea to create a different counter to LRFs (in order to increase survival rate of LFs) could be to change the damage type of one cruiser class from anti heavy to anti light (either support or disable/repair cruisers). these cruisers deal not so much damage anyway so the damage might be more efficient vs LRFs than vs cruisers. And it would be nice to watch Hoshikos hunting down Ilums
Actually, considering I have a bit of a scout fetish, I was more getting on board and drooling at the possibility of my scout fleets. I've loved messing with scouts ever since I saw the tec scout ability.
Actually, I think lowering the health of long range frigates is all that's needed. Currently scouts can beat them. The only exception is Vasari scouts can't beat Illums.
I've written another post in the general section about HC's vs. LRFS. I want to balance the current lrf's so they make sense (Assailants need slight buff in shields, lrms slight nerf of all things, and illums a big nerf in health). After that, I want a 10% nerf in overall health/shields. Do this, and you have at least 1 hard counter frigate to lrfs: Scouts. Fix the balance of fighters vs. flak and you have two: fighters & scouts. The nice complicating feature here is scouts have light armor as well, so fighters counter scouts too.
Just cross your fingers a patch is coming.
i like your ideas amish. lrfs in general need to have a hp nerf. long rang units should not be the tanks in hte battlefield. They should deal heavy dmg but be very weak and easy to take out.
Wouldnt lrf need a buff in range if they were nerfed a bunch.I mean especially the ilum its barely long range at all.
I think a lrf range buff would be better, I've never seen the actual statistics for them but in-game it seems like its not much longer than the lf, maybe x2 what they have. it would be nice if they could shoot farther, maybe a quarter of the way across the grav. well, but with debuffs to health, shields, and armor, as has been mentioned repeatedly by raging amish and top vasari.
Btw, thank you guys for your quick responses, especially Raging Amish and Top Vasari who's input was very helpful and appreciated
I must emphasisze that the lrf range is already the longest in the game. The Illum actually has the third longest range in the game with 5500 (arbitraty I know, for reference, HC's have a range of 2000 i think). Assailants have a range of 7800 i think. LRMS 9800. This is all off the top of my head. Zyrxil has a post up in the strategy section where you can look it up.
Keep in mind, I'm not asking for a huge nerf. Not at all. Small adjustments to this game yield huge results. Actually balancing lrf's is the first step. Second is giving them a slight nerf in health so they're counterable. That's all they need. This will also mean that flak will need to be adjusted, but still, it'd be a good starting point.
After that, a slight fix to enforcers, a slight fix to repulse, a slight fix to lf's, and boom, GAME PLAYABLE. A slight fix to flak vs. fighters, and boom, GAME BALANCED. This isn't rocket science. I have my opinions on the stardock and ironclad crews. I've been gentle so far with my....grievances. So far I've been Calm Amish. Raging Amish hasn't actually spoken yet.
I actually have an idea for several new game pieces. I'm planning to make something called a gunship. This would be (essentially) the cruiser equivalent of flak frigates. It would have heavy armor, and would do anti light damage, so it could take on LRFs and bombers effectively.
I am not really a tactical player, and only of medium skill that gets in over my head pretty quick with larger maps and with more than 2 enemies, however, i am a file tweaker, and have looked at the lf's and the lrf's or lrm's whichever, and it seems to me that each is positioned as a specialist in something else.
What i mean is the light frigates appear to me as support ships, low firepower, not intended for heavy use, but, then again, when we first start a game they are all that is available with minimum investment in temples and research. Anyway, they are clearly intended as the first line use frigate, to be replaced later. Which with the later research of course opens their support abilities and they go from being a low end fighter frigate to a medium level support ship.
I think the problem is people wanting to build a huge or vastly superior fleet from components that were really only designed as opening game first level fighters. What may prove a counter to having too many lrf's on the field at one time might be not to nerf their abilities but to increase their cost, or have two step research, where we get one increase in perhaps the illusionary ability from the first research, and a second (not yet existing) ability could increase the range (lets say we start the lllum at standard range (under its current range) but then with secondary research we increase it to its present range. In this way, we interfere perhaps as little as possible, but we do make it more difficult to spam.
Anyway, just some thoughts, I know the turret has weapons levels, i will have to look and see if we could copy over some of that into frigates. If so, that might be the way, to have weapons increase in range after so many seconds.
-Teal
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