I have yet to see all that much of a purpose to LF's... They were intended to be used as a frontline unit, but they lack the ability to counter support cruisers like they were supposed to... They are of course weak to LRF's and just get slaughtered... I would like to know what people think of this concept and if someone has any ideas for how you could use them in an actual strategy... They only purposes I see for them would be cannon fodder and taking out carrier assault teams which are not escorted...
I still run into people who don't know that they need flaks to counter carriers. Doesn't mean I don't consider a flak/LRF combo mainstream. Some thing goes for LF countering carriers. Sins has a lower player density than other games, so it's understandable it takes a bit longer for strategies (particularly situational ones) to permeate the community. As far as the forums go, I think you made your point months ago that scouts are a potent member of your fleet, and everyone around here knows what a scout rush is about.
Mocked by vets. Point taken though. Point taken.
I agree that the lf is really worthless. Infact I just use 5 or so as a meat shield for my main fleet.
Anyway, the talk of the free cap ship reminded me of a mod I have been watching called Dawn of Victory (heres to the url http://www.moddb.com/mods/dawn-of-victory) it is looking really cool and it actually makes it so you have to research your cap and super cap ships so they are only late game. They have also added corvet, and destroyer classes so you have a much wider range of ships. Also some of their ships already have flak guns built in to help control the fighters.
Anyway I agree that the lf needs a slightly larger role then it has. I mean it isn't really even as usefull as the zergling in starcraft.
That's because, costwise, the zergling actually offers by far the best DPS and hit points of any early game unit.
A zergling gives you 5 damage and 35 hit points for 25 minerals. A marine gives you 6 damage 40 hit points for 50 minerals. The marine has range, for sure, but in terms of those raw stats the zergling is going to rip him to shreds if this comes down to a sheer battle of who is dealing the most damage and who can tank it.
I agree and they are also useful late game, unlike lf's. Mainly because in the end game you can make what a friend of mine called superlings out of them when you research all their upgrades. The lf's, well......ya enough said.
I've added reduction of LRF dmg bonus to medium armor to the Patch stat Changes forum
Here's why:
1) LFs are the only ships that carry Medium Armor.
2) Consider damage to damage bonus ratios for other ships. Example: Light armor and Anti-light damage, Anti-light damage does 200% to light armor, but the ships that use Anti-light damage have very low dps. Anti-medium ships have a high dps and also a high damage bonus (150%) and the furthest range.
A reduction in the damage bonus may be what the LF needs to say alive long enough to be of use.
What's weird in Sins, is that it has a balance that is opposite to that in games that are a bit like it. At least in this respect. Now I know I have to be careful, because the similarity I'm going to draw isn't very strong, but hear me out. Look at Stracraft or Warcraft 3. All the factions in these games have a standard unit (usually a melee unit, but sometimes a ranged unit) and a T1.5 unit that comes available fairly quickly. This second unit is alway the opposite of the T1 unit (it's melee if the other is ranged and vice versa). Kinda sounds like the LRF vs. LF story, right? However, in both SC and WC, these ranged units actually get countered by the melee ones in a straight shoot out. Only when the fights get bigger and natural bottlenecks start to matter, do the ranged units gain the upper hand. Because of this, it's important to have a balance between ranged and melee units.
Sins, however, has the problem that ranged units can't use the natural layout of the map to their advantage. But what's really interesting is that Sins reversed the roles of the counters: not only do the LRF have far more range, they also slaughter the short ranged LF. And on a side note: the LF is also more expensive than the LRF for 2 of the factions. So where in the other two games the melee units are the damage soackers and the ranged units the DPS'ers, in Sins both of these roles seem to belong to the LRF, which is really weird IMO. It seems to me that lowering the health of the LRF seems a sensible step in the right direction, but because Sins is in many ways also very different from WC and SC, this might not do the whole trick.
IMO... increase turn rate of the LF, and remove the free Cap Ship. You really should have to research something to unlock Cap Ships. Having this huge super-beast of a ship when you are a fledgling empire with one world under your belt (even if the TEC is feeding you schematics and what not) is sort of silly (especially since you can have a cap ship BEFORE a heavy cruiser - makes NO sense).
This would make the opening stages of the game just as exciting as the rest of the game. You'd just have to actually fight with small fleets and use colony frigates for a change. Sorta shift the research abilities down a tier or two and add in cap ships at the end instead. Or perhaps leave the initial cap ship in, but make the rest come much later.
Also... the LF becomes useful later on for it's anti...erm, well, anti anti-matter abilities.
Also... what do people think of factoring range to target into SINS? For instance, imagine if Light Frigates did 150% or even 200% more damage (or more or changed dmg type, etc) w/ their weapons at point blank range than they do at longer distances when they are closing? It could actually force players to use to waypoint system to maneuver the hell out of their fleets and to use screens of heavier ships to protect things like the LRF.
I mean, the game has collision and range detection already, doesn't it? You'd probably have to rebalance the turn rates and speeds of the rest of the ships in this game though, if you did that... but who cares? Dynamic battles = more fun!
-Itharus
Although I disagree with your cap ship comment, I do like your idea for LF's...
Having an exponential damage increase for LF's would be nice... What would be better would be an S curve that hits the drop off point at a range of 2500. Beyond 3500, damage would be 2-3 DPS. So, I'll just give a quick chart:
500: 20 DPS
1000: 19 DPS
1500: 17.5 DPS
2000: 15 DPS
2500: 12 DPS
3000: 8 DPS
3500: 3 DPS
4000: .5 DPS
I don't know, these are just general concepts here... Those were just random numbers that I was throwing out there...
That seems to add needless management, since a unit left to its own devices may not move closer to deal more damage. It's trivial to close the distance between yourself and a target.
But, it doesn't have to be trivial. What you call needles management, I call dynamism. "Dancing" units is a pretty common theme in many RTS games, it's often what separates the good players w/ micro skills from the junk players (in mp). Also, It would be possible to rewrite the scripts to make the units behave properly automatically by tying it into the engagement range toggle in the fleet pane - a "skirmish" script could prolly be generated for things that need to kite, heck, they did it in Total War.
Granted I've no clue how, because I'm not a modder or programmer or anything like that, but logically it would make sense that it should be possible. I dunno, I think it's an idea worth thinking on a bit .
Well, it would not be hard to do... All you have to do is design an algorithm that is designed to solve itself. On one side, you have the current DPS and the likelihood that the ship will survive. On the other, you have maximum and likihood of death. Let's say the cobalt is at a range of 3000 so the DPS is 8.
I don't feel like explaining likelihood of death/life values, but it would be calculated by the number/DPS of nearby enemy ships and the number/health of allied ships.
So, it would look something like this:
Live%*Ideal DPS=Death%*20
So, you reduce some things and you get:
Ideal DPS=(Death%*20)/Live%
So, this way, the ship will adjust itself if the values are incorrect. Let's say that the ship is at a range of 3000 and has:
Live%=70%
Death%=30%
now, calculate... (.3*20)/.7=8.57
Now, just run that through a polynomial function (which I am too lazy to write out) and you will get a range.
Simply put, the higher the chance of living, the closer the ship gets. The lower, the farther away it goes.
Needless management and dynamism are two very different things. Needless management is when there is an obvious best choice, and the player's action is a fairly moot point. An example is all your fighters chasing after that one bomber. Of course you want them to attack the enemy LRF, but you have to keep giving them the order every single time because they default back to attacking the bomber once their target is dead. This isn't dynamism, this is needless management. Similarly, having to order a light frigate to close the distance every single time they lock on to a new target isn't dynamism, this is also needless management. Light frigates are the fastest and most mobile units in the game, closing in to the enemy isn't difficult (in fact, it's downright trivial). This is something that could easily be scripted as AI behavior, and as a result I don't think it would add anything to the game.
The dynamism comes with the response to such behavior. Better use of formations, maneuvering, setting up blocks to enemy advances, and in general... having the fleet do more than sit in one spot holding still and firing. You'd have to think and react more... you'd be more engaged. And yes, you could script the closing behavior, I infact, think that it would be necessary.
Not to mention it would make the Z Axis an even more beautiful thing (although they'd have to adjust how range is calculated on the Z Axis... but that's needed anyway, imo). As it stands now, movement is a very secondary thing in this game... you really just use it to place illums/guardians/caps or to screw up something else's firing arc so that you can get your cap out of the danger.
I'm not suggesting this (just modifying LF) be the only change, but I think if a system like this were added into the game on a wide spectrum, it could really help SINS be more of an awesome 3D Space RTSX4Thingy.
I dunno... I just think two massive fleets pounding it out from set positions with the occasional push is more like WW1 artillery fights than naval space combat. I think changes like this one would add a bit more to the tactical side of things, which to me would be welcome... as the strategic element of this game is already quite nice.
Best of both worlds, yo.
Personally, I use Light Frigates the same way I use HW2's Hiigaran Flak Frigates- as meatshields and early-game siege units. They also make great pinning forces, and as distractions.
I admit i am too lazy tso read all the posts, but i think the LF has a purpose in the beginning. For some completely irrational reason scouts perform quite well against LRFs (I noticed that in a fun game with a friend when my 30 Scouts totally smashed his armada of his expansive LRM )
So he built some LF and one Cap to kill my scouts what went quite well for him So may be LF beats Scout, Scout beats regardless of its low damage LRF??, and LRF beat the crap out of pretty much everything...
I made a small mod once to make the LF to a kind of Hit&run frigate, but i have some trouble updating it for Entrenchmet 1.03. May be i post it when i can solve the problem...
it's probably the 'renderShieldMesh TRUE' line that comes after the shieldmesh name. It's not in previous Entrenchment versions.
Also, setting it to FALSE will make the game not render the shieldmesh.
I think siege frigates are actually the "unused frigate"
LFs are good for assisting the earl colonization of neutral planets, but lose relevance fairly early, especially agaisnt a vasari player with assailants being so eay to get. They have a limited use in the later game because of the anti-matter distruption abilites, but i think with one additional ability they could take on the support-ship-killer role they were designed for.
Vasari Skirmisher: A passive ability (range 1000-1500) that slows down the phase jump charge up of enemy ships near the skirmisher, it stacks with phase jump distruptors, but not with other skirmishers. Let's say it slows it down by 200%. This would allow the skirmishers to stay out of the main battle, but charge in once the enemy begins to retreat and destroy the carriers and support cruisers that it counters. The ability also fits with the vasari dominance of Phase Space
Disciple Vessel: A passive ability (range 1000-1500) that increases the antimatter cost of nearby enemy ships abilities by 10-15%, does not stack. This way, the steal and transfer anitmatter abilities will take enough antimatter from the enemy to halt the support ships ability casting. They would still be incredibly weak in combat, but the enemy would be forced to target them to use abilities. Use animosity and they wouldn't be able to destroy the disciples and another advent synergy is uncovered
Cobalt: An active ability (range 1000-1500) with a small AoE that drains the anitmatter reserves of the ships near the targeted ship. Maybe -5 antimatter a second for 10 seconds. Efffective against massed enemy support ships and carriers. Since the cobalt is fairly durable for a lf i think this would help the TEC late game against superior advent fleets and allow it to combat masses of subverters from a Vasari opponent. Combine with Flux Field and Flak Burst and the enemy carriers will lose the AM neccesary to make more strikecraft, giving the TEC a late game strategy other than uber-spam
These are just ideas, i think that combat-wise LFs are right on the mark, but they could use more researchable abilities to give them a purpose late game
This goes along with my mod ideas for them... My idea is to turn them into a meat shield with passive mass-buffs. The range is small, but the more you pack into that small space, the bigger the bonus. The Advent get a mitigation bonus, the TEC get a hull regen bonus, the Vasari get an armor bonus. Now, that said, if you managed to cram (and I mean REAAAALLY cram) about 175 of any of those into that tiny range, they would end up reducing any damage you threw at them by about 99%.
My idea was more of a meat shield idea, but I like that idea too... The Cobalts already have Destabilize Reactor which is a good one-hit active. If they could have something like "Bleed Reactor" that would slowly drain AM and health, I think that would be good too...
As far as Vasari go, I'd say something like "Detonate Nanites" which causes enemy ships' weapons/ability launchers to get clogged with nanites that like to make themselves go boom. Deactivates abilities at least.
I do like your idea for the Animosity synergy. That thing does need some more use other than Vengeance... I would like to see it actually help draw fire to save other ships. As well as that though, it would unlock another synergy between the Radiance and the Disciple. You would get unlimited AM. You could just throw Det AM at everything in sight and shoot everything else with the best armament in the game. Combine all that with a few Dominas and you just got a great synergy going. Its mutualism. The Disciples stay alive and deactivate enemy abilities, the Radiance gets unlimited AM and bodyguards, and the Domina gets AM and bodyguards. Everybody wins!
My ideas about the abilities was how i see the races, the vasari need some way to take out enemy fleets late game, (let's face it they suck after an hour) so it would give them extra time while the enemy is defenseless.
The advent ability would fit into several synergies, animosity, malice, and vengence, and then use the disciples on enemy hoshikos and overseers and they wouldn't be able to heal the damaged ships, but the discples are so squishy that once animosity is over they can be picked off fairly quickly and the combo won't be overpowered.
The cobalt ability i think shouldn't deal damage just because it could become too powerful, 100+ cobalts using it would be worse than a missle barage... I envisioned it as a way for the TEC to disrupt Advent synergies and stop vasari subverters from taking half of your fleet out of the battle.
These are just my ideas, light frigates combat prowress is right on par (i think) but they could use better anti-support abilities. And this way, the counter system in the game remains intact.
@Volt_Cruelerz: I like your idea for the vasari lf, but i think it would be more unique if it allowed the enemy to still use abilities, but damage the affected enemy ships every time they did, along with increasing cooldown time. So when your opponent's support cruisers go to mass heal a cap under heavy fire, they would get damaged. And carriers making new strickecraft would also take damage.
Any other ideas?
I already realized a mod about a year ago that would add similar abilities to all three LF(Mainly because i was too lazy to make 6 different Icons ). My Idea was more that the LF should avoid direct battle. It was more like a tool for weaker players to hit important targets deep within enemy territory.
For that purpose i gave them two abilities. One is largely increased mobility(faster, higher maneuverability, high gravity well tolerance) which enables then to outrun almost any fleet. On the downside this will decrease their amor, thus making them even more fragile.Normaly they dont't have to engage enemys as they can jump deep within the grav well, bypassing the defenses. Of course fighters in combination with jump inhibitors can still kill them.
The other ability is a weapon burst that increases the firerate for 500% for 20-25 seconds, but is draining their shields.The high firerate is not suitable to attack Caps(So they are not snipers) as they will largely increase the shield mitigation with the rapid fire. It is best used against buildings and ships with low health(like support cruiser).
The ability is slightly different for the partys in respect of the different stats. The TEC can use the ability normaly with some antimatter and some shield consumption with a decent cooldownrate(To prevent permanent use in combination with a support cap).The advent ship uses less shields and antimatter as the basic damage is the lowest and the diciple vessle not generating antimatter on its own(It can only steal it later, stay close to a sun or beeing refilled by some other way)The vasari ship has the same shield drain as the Cobalt but no antimatter use(As it has none to bgein with). On this ship the cooldown is twice as long as on the others.
The only problem is that the mod was for the original Sins any many of the mechanics have severly changed since then...
@Aanderson:
Late game, the Vas are a force to be reckoned with. Its just mid-game they are weak.
Yep, hence why I like it.
True, but subs are weak... They got overnerfed.
I would say so.
Perhaps something that scaled with AM usage. For ever point of AM used, the cruiser takes 2.5 damage.
@Grottenolm
Ilike the fire rate increase.
I find that out of the three races, the vasari have to weakest late-game fleet. The advent are obviously the strongest and the TEC fall in the middle. The Vasari weak HC and less effective strikecraft doom them in a prolonged battle. Whenever i play vasari; hit and run becomes the main tactic. The only way to win is to choose where to attack, rather than letting your enemy choose where you have to defend. But thats just me, i have never spent that long learning the nuances of the vasari abilities.
Anyway:
Light frigates need better abilities, maybe not the ones suggested here, but something. Or their names need to be changed to "Free Experience"
Once you start doing all the micro needed for Vas and learn just when to use their abilities, they do become much more powerful.
I couldn't agree more.
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