I have yet to see all that much of a purpose to LF's... They were intended to be used as a frontline unit, but they lack the ability to counter support cruisers like they were supposed to... They are of course weak to LRF's and just get slaughtered... I would like to know what people think of this concept and if someone has any ideas for how you could use them in an actual strategy... They only purposes I see for them would be cannon fodder and taking out carrier assault teams which are not escorted...
There are two problems.
First and foremost, when you look at what damage and health you get for the cost you've paid, the lrf is better than the lf for every faction. Even before we consider what counters what, the lrf is simply gets you better bang for your buck. The fact that one of these units counters the other seals the deal. Light frigates end up only being useful for their special abilities. As combat units, they're simply outclassed by everything out there. Unless you're literally masing the things they're designed to counter they just don't work.
The second issue is that one of the big advantages of the light frigate is, supposedly, mobility. But that doesn't count for a lot in Sins. You might spend 20 seconds actually closing the distance between the enemy army, and then two minutes shooting it out in a chaotic fray. What really counts is turn speed, something light frigates have absolutely no advantage at, so for all intents and purposes long range frigates and heavy cruisers are just as mobile as the light frigate.
True, except for when they are running away
That much is true; when it comes to running away light frigates, carriers, and scouts are kings. Unfortunately, it's hard to win games by running away.
Wrong, this is the best way to play tag.
Games of Sins
You also forget that light frigates require no research and is the de facto swarm ship (just watch the agressive AI). Of course they are supposed to suck (who gave you that they are a frontline unit?). That said perhaps a higher quality version like say a light cruiser would be a nice addition to sins, but I don't think the devs ever intended for games to be won with LFs.
True, it just seems like the game lacks a true, frontline unit... Sure the AI spams Cobalts, but you smash them with LRM's/Assailants/Illums...
Although the AI loves to do this, in practice it is not the case. The LF offers you by far the worst base stats for money spent of any frigate in the game. The fact that it has an easily accessible (and quite brutal) counter available relatively early makes it nearly useless as a bulk unit.
The manual says that.
I disagree. I see no reason to create a new unit to fulfill exactly the same role as a unit we already have. The light frigate should be buffed to become competent at the role it is supposed to fulfill.
Exactly, I guess IC thought without a clear frontline/"tank" unit (some might argue heavy cruisers, but they are too expensive and take a lot of research), people would have more diverse fleets, but that never really works with a counter system like sins has.
And I never said cobalt spam was a good idea, it is just the easiest spam to pull off. You can stop a LF spam by spamming almost anything but carriers and support, so I don't think it is a LRM issue.
@Darvin
A. Any unit that is avaliable without research is a potential spam (which I use interchangably with rush). You can get them out quicker and have more resources to build them with. True the low research costs for the basic frigates mean that it is not a really effective strategy in sins, but still.
B. Sense when did we go by the manual (I tried to find mine just to see, but the fact that I lost it must say something)? Just look at their damage bonuses and it is obvious they are not a frontline unit. And did Entrenchment ever get a manual?
C. It wouldn't be exactly the same role. It would be researchable, would probably kill flak, carriers, and support fast enough to be useful, and would not get owned by LRMs. Bombers and heavy cruisers would be its counter. And sense it would probably be at least lvl 3 research they could give it stats at a much fairer base stat to cost ratio.
Then what would be the point in having a light frigate. They are meant to kill flak, scouts, and support cruisers, creating another unit that serves the same purpose would make the unit obsolete. It IS meant to be a frontline unit because it IS meant to kill support cruisers and flak, which put the unit smack dab in the middle of the enemy fleet in order to do so.
Perhaps what is needed is a researchable tech to make them more resistant to lrf fire and allow them to live long enough to serve their purpose, problem with that is all the additional coding. Minor changes to the frigates health, armor, shielding and weapons or a reduction in the damage bonus lrfs receive when attacking them would help the frigate significantly.
The problem is that light frigates offer substantially worse performance for the amount you paid for them than long range frigates. While this makes sense to an extent, long range frigates are the hard counter to light frigates, and effectively wipe them off the board as a result.
I don't think there's any reason to add an anti-LRF upgrade. If you have multiple labs, this upgrade is trivial and adds no real strategy to the game; it just becomes an effective prerequisite to use LF. If you don't have multiple labs, you can't unlock other unit types and your LF will get slaughtered by LRF with or without this upgrade. Seems superfluous to me.
I agree somewhat darvin, but no unit counters harder than the lrf, which I feel is why LFs don't give a great performance for their cost. Something should be done to boost the life span of LFs, and frankly I don't much care about what that may be as long as its effective.
I think something that few people use LF for is the back door attack. More often than not once you engage your enemies fleet there is almost always an opening to fly ships into the back side of the enemy empire. LF are the second fastest ship next to scouts and since they are cheap and have the second quickest build time you can easily replace lost units and really harass your opponent. I usually play TEC and with the starbase upgrade that allows ships to be produced, I can create a small contingent of LF in a VERY short amount of time.
I do not mind at all if I lose LF in a fleet battle. LF are cheap, build quick, fly quick (i waypoint my factory to the fleet cap), are usually the first ship shot at, and have cool abilities to boot for slowing down and destroying support cruisers, which is almost always the first type of ship we have to destroy anyways.
Just my 2 cents
Light Frigs are supposed to be awful for actual engagements. You get them from the start. If LF rushing was a legit tactic, this game would be COMPLETELY 1 dimensional. As it stands, two units are available form the start. Scouts. LF's. Yes. LF's suck. But they DO help with early expansion.
The place where the problem enters is that everyone at some point gets support cruisers yes? I mean, eventually you're going to, right? Well, what counters them? Anyone? Light frigs....yay. So you surround them with lrf's to stop from losing them. LF's do kill off support cruisers effectively. Thanks to lrf's though, they never get near them.
On top of this, lrf's get the 3rd best damage multipliers in the game after only HC's (Best in the game, but late game tech), and capital ships (At best support to your fleet, not ur actual fleet). Link those two issues together, and you have a game where people will rush to lrf each and every time.
How do you get around this? Well, there's the little trick of the scout rush I have shown people (raise ur hand and say you've used it and I'll give you karma). Only problem is if you get hit with a Seige Drop (marza or desolator rush) or get a starbase sent your way. Get's hairy there. Need scouts watching to see if ur enemy is gonna do that. Then you know to switch to lrf's.
Which by the way. Why would people do starbase rushes and Marza rushes if the lrf spam is the most common strategy in the game? I mean, in all seriousness, the best counter to a starbase rush in the very very very early stages of the game is a lrf rush. The best counter to a Marza rush is a lrf rush, because you can actually kill it.
Last bit's a little off topic, but still, points made.
Here's just a quick idea:
LRFs main advantages are: They are cheap, available early, can shoot at a very long range and their rockets rip LFs to shreds.
The LRFs downsides are: ... ... ... *a pin drops* ... ...
Obviously that's a slight exaggeration, but I want to point towards the idea that LRFs need some sort of noteworthy downside in order allow the LFs to play any role on the battlefield.
My personal idea would be to reduce their firing arcs significantly so they have to face the targeted vessel in order to shoot at it. The result I expect would be that a wall of LRFs will deal significant damage at range but once the enemy gets into close proximity especially LFs will outmaneuver them and deal considerable damage while the LRFs can't focus on any target.
Balancing this is rather difficult because the result of a battle depends a lot on the micromanagement of the opposing forces, but this way LFs could use their good maneuvering to avoid the LRF's deadly punch and thus gain a significant role on the battlefield again.
I don't think this would make the LF dominant though because fighters will still pick them off easily. Also LFs only achieve 75% damage on LRFs, so going straight for the enemy's LRFs will take quite some time while the enemy's LFs get a clear shot of yours where they deal 100%. The net result would be that a healthy game fleet incorporates a bulk of LFs and some LRF support in the rear that pick off any targets that aren't actively avoiding their fire.
A game's timeline:
Build LFs for the first battle.
Add 10-20% LRFs.
Research Carriers to take out enemy LRFs.
Build flaks to protect own LRFs.
Add a few heavy assault ships to engage both flak and LRFs with their attack-ability.
Enjoy that you have all types of fighter ships in your fleet and each serves a distinct purpose.
I'll repeat my self from my other thread:https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356140
Base LF and LRF damage chart:
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:CapitalShip 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Light 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Medium 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Heavy 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryHeavy 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Module 0.50 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Module 0.5
Proposed change 1:
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:CapitalShip 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Light 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Medium 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Heavy 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryHeavy 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Module 0.50 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Module 1.0
Proposed change 2:
DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:CapitalShip 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Light 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Medium 1.25 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Heavy 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:VeryHeavy 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIMEDIUM:Module 0.50 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:CapitalShip 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Light 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Medium 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Heavy 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:VeryHeavy 0.5 DamagePercentBonus:ANTIHEAVY:Module 1.0
Either change I say is not a garanty to fix rushing onyl to LRFs as that also requirer the carriers and fighters LRFs counter's to actuly work. But it will help thing out alot in makign LF into the main front line uint. In mediaval combat you could compare LFs to footsoldiers and LRFs to Archers. Now witch formed the bulck of the army already?
Well, if you're looking for a downside to lrf's, the best option would probably be to make them much much much much much more frail than they currently are. Am I saying give them a -75% health, -75% shields, no armor? No, no no no. But something along the lines of taking the current lrf's and lowering their combined hp/shields/armor by say 30-50% would probably give some good results. The in game description says they're supposed to be frial.
Well, I can definitely tell you. These aint frail. They almost (emphasis on almost) can beat HC's. That's just wrong. Too wrong.
Double Post
Like Amish's first paragraph said, I think the point of the light frigate is your starting combat ship (is their anypoint in argueing about it if we can't agree on this). It's like your standard machine gun armed infantry except without the ability to capture buildings or anything else that makes you want to keep them, save they are cheap. And yes a light cruiser would kill the same things, but LRFs would not be a counter to it, which everyone says is the main problem.
And yes I have scout rushed before, and it does work if the enemy has a 80%+ LRM fleet.
I know what you're saying GoaFan, but even as a "First Unit" They fail. A first unit shouldn't fall out of use the second you get the next one. They may fall out of use eventually, but the LF is worthless almost even before you have anything else(A Capital ship can very well last until even the advent can deploy illumintors). A games first unit should remain more practical for some time. That is to say, even if it's not cost efficient, it should still be more practically efficient. Say the 'replacement' for LF were 10 times as expensive but 12 times as powerful. Eventually, you'll stop producing the LF, but for now, you simply don't have the money to produce even one of these things without hurting your economy something awful.
The problem is that the replacement for Light Frigates, Long Range Frigates, are available so early. The Vasari can get them with one military lab. TEC get them with two. Only the Advent have any real trouble. But even then, your free cap ship is easily enough to tide you over. Meaning the Light Frigate fails as an early unit.
And this assumes that making a unit to just start you off is an ok thing. An early game unit shouldn't be a bad unit, just a cheap simple one. I like the Anti-Cruiser upgrades, they mean that the ship (Is supposed to) go from useful early combat to a more support role, ideally still attached to a decent ship. A basic unit SHOULD be useful throughout the game, even if it's role shifts, if properly upgraded. I'm not too keen on the idea of a ship whose ONLY value is "You don't have anything better." It just encourages you to hurry up and get that something better. And thanks to the free cap ship, you are not overly penalized for waiting for your LRFs.
I actually quite like the idea of making the LRF have poor health. This would mean the LRF would still be by far the better damage-dealing choice, but when it comes to being able to absorb damage (coming from something other than LRF's...) the light frigate has a distinct advantage. Of course, this would probably open up a whole new bag of worms, particularly with HC's tearing up LRF. You'd probably need to lower the damage bonus of fighters and HC's to keep things in line (this would also affect scouts).
And yes, Amish, most of us here have used the scout rush. It's not some new and novel strategy, it's quite well known and mainstream now.
Mainstream wasn't the word that came to mind to be honest Darvin. I still get mocked by people when I make them. My impression was that few people were actually using them. I was curious to see if that was true.
Actually, if they did reduce the health of LRFs, I'd like the HCs to keep their damage bonus. A Heavy Cruiser should be able to destroy everything short of a capital ship. The only thing that should be able to stand up to a HC is another HC or a group of LFs and LRFs.
actually, the only thing that should stand up to HC's is HC's and/or bombers and/or starbases. LRF's shouldn't be giving them as good a fight as they do now.
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