3v1, 3v2, 2vcomps, 3v1+1 comp, 2v0(no im not kidding) and 3v3 with four comps. am i missing something? are games supposed to be like this? uneven teams and comps in a multiplayer setting?
am i trying to make this into something its not? is pantheon really just the funlol game type and skirmish is where the serious games are?
and whats the difference between skirmish and pantheon anyways?
I've had 4vs0 where I was on fighting against the side of the pantheon I was on too : p
Pantheon can only have good vs evil where skirmish can be mixed, and Good vs Evil favor is tracked on pantheon. Also, Pantheon is the place for friends to stomp randoms by abusing the connect screen prior to the game launching, which from what I understand is mostly what's causing the funky matchup issues.
No, it's not supposed to be like that. One of the issues right now is that a lot of people seem to be quitting after a game is put together (often at the load screen) because they only want to play with their friends on their team, and for whatever reason don't want to just play customs. We are planning to add team pantheon, but right now that seems to be the main issue throwing things off.
Just stay away from Pantheon for now. It is not worth it.
While I completely believe that this is one of the major reasons for the problem, that doesn't mean you get to just say "Well that's why it's happening, so oh well". The truth is, you made an exploitable system. Now Stardock needs to work towards patching the holes that allow this to work. Let's examine the issue more closely:
Question: Why is it that people are using this method to play with friends as opposed to Custom games?
Answer: Rankings. People are using it as a method to exploit the ranking system. In Custom games, almost everyone with extremely high rankings plays with friends, so the competition is difficult. In pantheon, you're almost guaranteed to win playing with friends since it's a supposedly "random" system. Also, a lot of people would say that a high ranking Custom Ranking doesn't "mean as much". Obviously this is silly, since these stats essentially mean nothing and they're going to be reset soon anyways, but this is the train of thought people take.
Question: Why won't simply implementing "Team Pantheon" fix this?
Answer: Once again, Rankings. Once you have a Team Pantheon system, you will only see arranged teams playing in this. Personally, I'm ecstatic to see the increased competition. I think it's going to be a ton more fun and present a great challenge. However, I have the feeling that the rankings junkies won't see it the same way. These types of players are always looking for a way to make the game easier for them, and I've seen it ever since I began gaming. Maphackers in Starcraft, Standby glitchers in Halo 2, and exploiters in World of Warcraft arenas are just a few examples. They don't care about improving their gameplay, and they don't care about playing fair. All they want is to have a good ranking so they can feel better about themselves. These players will likely keep playing the regular Pantheon games and include their friends so they can continue facing PUGs and boost their stats.
Question: So then, how do we solve this problem?
Answer: The answer is simple. The method of being used in order to make this work is to have both players enter a Pantheon game at the same time, wait until the connection information screen shows all the players attempting to connect, and immediately leave if they don't see their friends name on the screen. We solve this by not allowing players to see each other's names in the dialog screen. Put in some sort of placeholder until the game begins. (ie: "Player 1, Player 2, etc") This way, the player will be forced to enter the actual game, and at that point if they decide to leave it will cost them a loss on their beloved "stats".
Question: What if this isn't the only thing causing the uneven games?
Answer: One of the other major logical problems with the game is how Pantheon games are formed. Unlike a custom game, it is all automated. In a custom game, you wait for your desired number of players to join the game, allow everyone to connect, and then once everything is peachy you begin. However, in a Pantheon game the logic is very different. The Pantheon system finds the desired number of players, then quits looking for players completely and lets them all try to connect. If someone cannot connect, or leaves, then they aren't replaced. The game is simply started without that player. All that needs to happen is a change in the Pantheon logic. Find the necessary number of players, let them all try to connnect, then determine if anyone was lost in the process. If they are, find another player(s) to replace them and start the process over.
Question: Can I have a job Stardock? Please?
It is definitely an issue that we have made GPG aware of and we are looking at the problem closely to see what solutions are possible in a reasonable amount of time.
its even more easy
once the game is starting whoever and for whatsoever reason leave the game get the game counted as lost
thats it
Question: What if this isn't the only thing causing the uneven games?Answer: One of the other major logical problems with the game is how Pantheon games are formed. Unlike a custom game, it is all automated. In a custom game, you wait for your desired number of players to join the game, allow everyone to connect, and then once everything is peachy you begin. However, in a Pantheon game the logic is very different. The Pantheon system finds the desired number of players, then quits looking for players completely and lets them all try to connect. If someone cannot connect, or leaves, then they aren't replaced. The game is simply started without that player. All that needs to happen is a change in the Pantheon logic. Find the necessary number of players, let them all try to connnect, then determine if anyone was lost in the process. If they are, find another player(s) to replace them and start the process over.Question: Can I have a job Stardock? Please?
i dont like so much your idea tbh
imo the pantheon is just flawed as concept
they should just merge the 3 option : pantheon skirmish custom into 2
I tried joining a Pantheon game yesterday. I believe we got connected and the screen changed to the map loading screen. It sat there for 5 minutes before I alt-tabbed and closed Demigod. I got a loss for it.
I like your Ideas Meta. Pantheon is supposed to be a test of your skill with random teamates and random opponetns at the moment (or should be). They definately should add 2v2 ladder 3v3 ladder, but they didn't. So it should be random teamates and opponents period. The connection screen was a nice option when we weren't sure we were connecting and what was going on, now that connections are better they should do away with it, or even better mask the names. People are still likely to get ontheir friends sides at the moment but at least it wouldn't be guarunteed. At least put this fix in when you add the group join option, once they have the option to play as a group then you wouldn't need the connection window expoit anyway (but people may still be trying to use it).
Meta - that was a very good post. Thanks! But I don't think you quite have the best solution. Using the method described above, a person could still quit if their friend didn't make it into a game. The only way the system you descibed would work if both players games started to load at the same time or extremely close. It wouldn't be hard to chat to a buddy and say 'hey - do you see the connect dialog box?'... if he says no, then he could drop from the game and the same problem would occur. I do agree that the change you are describing could certainly reduce this issue to some degree. Do you think that there would be less drops of this sort if there was no connect dialog box?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "Best Solution". While my solution doesn't necessary remove all the potential for this type of exploit (as you pointed out), it does offer a solution that would interfere very little with the average user's experience. The problem with removing the connection dialog box is you remove the user's ability to troubleshoot. Considering the complex networking nature of this game, I think the ability to see the connection dialog box is pretty essential. (To be honest, I wish more games provided you with this much feedback)
It's not that simple though. First of all, they'd have to make sure that the game system could tell the difference between a disconnect, lack of connectivity, and a blatant quit. Also, I think this might be pretty frustrating for the average user. What happens when you have a relatively novice user out there who decided to play a Pantheon game. For whatever reason, they end up waiting an exceptionally long time. They might not necessarily know to open up the connection dialog box and understand exactly what is happening. After 10 minutes of waiting, they decide to quit and play a custom game, not realizing that they've started connecting to other players. They get counted as a loss, pretty unfairly to them.
...yeah, i can see the whiney forum posts now, lol
Both of you guys make excellent points, but Stardock needs to be EXTREMELY careful to address this issue without stepping on anyone's toes. Much like their stance on DRM, you always have to consider the average user before you try to punish the cheater/exploiter/pirate.
It's not only people looking to team up that quit games pre-emptively...
I quit games immediately whenever:
1) I see someone in the queue whom I refuse to play with on my side of the table (they are a terrible team mate and won't work together with me or are the total silent type).
2) I see someone who I've previously played with and they used an exploit (ie. icon exploit) or were particularly offensive.
3) There is an AI in the queue (I know the vast majority of their names now).
4) I see someone whom I have never been able to connect to. For me - Munashiimaru. I've seen him / her in the queue probably half a dozen times, and every single time we supposedly connect and then I end up alone in the game with no one else.
5) I spend a reasonable amount of time waiting for everyone to connect. Generally it reaches the point where 3/4 people are connected to each other and one person is out of the loop. 3-4 times what occurred next is the person unable to connect would drop, and the game would IMMEDIATELY start with the three people, obviously creating a 2v1 situation which isn't good for anyone. So I drop in advance so I'm not the one who has to deal with getting into the game (which can take 5 minutes easily) then quiting, and getting back into the que.
I think these are fair and legitimate reasons to run away from a Pantheon match before it has started - because as far as I'm concerned...under any one of these conditions the match isn't worth being played in the first place.
If you want me to see every one through - at least the "3 minute no harm no foul" rule needs to function properly...because right now it absolutely does not.
Other thoughts?
-Mya
what's a que?
har
My eyes are now open. Thank you, queue won't trick me again.
Mya - I think you make several valid points, but you aren't seeing the other side of the coin. You decide to drop because you encounter another player that you refuse to play with... well, now you've screwed the game for 3-5 other players. Just think about this big picture - 1 guy decides he hates playing with you, so now he drops with a game when he sees your name and now the teams are offset. Also, "there's an AI in the queue?" What are you talking about? After a game launches, you can tell if AI is there by a ping of 0 (if not you) or the words AI. Prior to that, I don't think the AI is in the games list... I really do agree with what you say about the 3 minute rule, though. I sometimes wait longer, but frankly, 3 minutes should be WAY more than long enough to wait before killing a game.
As a community, and a small one at that, we really do need to consider what happens NOT ONLY if we drop from a game for whatever reason, but what happens if other people adopt the same stance. EG, pantheon becomes what it currently is.
[/quote]Mya - I think you make several valid points, but you aren't seeing the other side of the coin. You decide to drop because you encounter another player that you refuse to play with... well, now you've screwed the game for 3-5 other players. Just think about this big picture - 1 guy decides he hates playing with you, so now he drops with a game when he sees your name and now the teams are offset. Also, "there's an AI in the queue?" What are you talking about? After a game launches, you can tell if AI is there by a ping of 0 (if not you) or the words AI. Prior to that, I don't think the AI is in the games list... I really do agree with what you say about the 3 minute rule, though. I sometimes wait longer, but frankly, 3 minutes should be WAY more than long enough to wait before killing a game. As a community, and a small one at that, we really do need to consider what happens NOT ONLY if we drop from a game for whatever reason, but what happens if other people adopt the same stance. EG, pantheon becomes what it currently is. [/quote]
Hmm - It's tough. Do you really think I should be forced into a game I won't have any fun at all playing in order to NOT mess it up for 3-5 other players? Would you force yourself into that situation everytime it occurred?
I only cancel in the queue process, before any loading screens appear or anything like that. I was under the impression that if I leave the queue, everyone has the ability to SEE that, and then cancel out and rejoin (like I am doing) in order to avoid a crappy game. Maybe I'm just selfish - but can you seriously ask me to play out a 30 minute game when I know I'm going to just be frustrated and upset the whole time b/c I can't work with my partner or there's a total jerk on the other side or someone who exploits certain functions?
Regarding the "AI in the queue" - I can distinguish AI by their names. IE - Hitani, Nacer. If I see these names I cancel out of the connection process and wait 30 seconds, and rejoin it. If I wanted to play AI, I'd just do a single player tournament.
Overall - I disagree with your stance Pacov. I paid $40 for this game. I AM the big picture as far as I'm concerned. The system should not force me to spend 30 minutes playing a game I don't want to (for GOOD reasons as I've previously stated) just so that I can make everyone else happy you know? That being said - I never leave a game once everyone connects to each other and the screens change.
Maybe someone from Stardock can explain this to me... but I thought that when you're in the connection screen the game has NOT started yet right? So getting out of the "queue" or connection screen still leaves everyone else time to decide what to do ...stay or go.
*shrugs*
I had a 5 v 0 today!
Coolio.
I also had a 3v2 where I was on the 3 side (with 2 other players) against a premade team.
When we stomped them, they cried about how they would have won if it were fair....
Fair enough, but I'd still argue that pantheon is the mash up of players. Custom games sound like a perfect place for leaving before a game begins without negatively impacting someone else's experience. You expecting that everyone is monitoring the connection box, trying to ensure that they don't end up in the game with people they dislike, etc, seems somewhat unreasonable. What happens, as I'm sure it occurs quite a lot, when you drop from a game at the connection box, but others aren't able to drop the game immediately and the game loads? Unbalanced game, etc... blahblahblah
I'll easily admit that I've done the same thing as you before (dropping at a connect screen for whatever reasons), but it has been identified as one of the main reasons connectivity in pantheon blows. As a result, I'm changing my stance. In a pantheon game with whoever, I'll give it a good 3 minutes or so at the connect screen and then drop if no connectivity. I won't drop because I'm paired with Billybob and he's no good, etc etc. If I want to choose who I'm playing with I should probably be in a custom game as they are designed to do just that. Pantheon, by design, is not made to try to get into a game with 1 of your buddies to increase your odds OR to be able to pick and choose your teammates/opponents. You have found a work around that functions well for you, but potentially ruins the pantheon game for other people. In reality, this isn't that big of an issue EXCEPT that, you're not the only person who does this, and our community is not that big.
Anyway, you make good points, but we obviously disagree and I doubt will see eye to eye.
Not from stardock, but no, everyone does not necessarily have time to leave a game if someone drops from the connect screen. As a clear example, in a 2v2 pantheon match, if three people are connected and they are waiting to connect to a 4th, if the 4th drops, the game immediately kicks off. Also, its possible that the connect screen could only be up for about 2-4 seconds. If you drop, there's easily potential for the game to kick to the load screen before anyone else could drop. There is not an additional locked delay when a player drops at the connect screen (eg you quit, there is not 5 seconds guaranteed to anyone remaining to drop).
Obscuring player names would be a good idea if it was possible to add players to a "I don't ever want to play with that guy again" list, if no AI ever found its way into pantheom matches for any reason, ever, and if pantheon matches would keep adding players to a match until it's full before launching the game.
But wouldn't it be much easier to simply add a pantheon lobby?
A lot of people are quiting at loading screen not because of teammate matching, it's because the friggin' load screen takes a minute or more and no indication of what it is doing. The connection info shows everyone connected yet sometimes the loading screen froze for ages, until someone give up and quits.
this won't absolve you of your sins
hehe
Yeah, what's up with this? Pantheon doesn't even seem to load up until someone quits...
I don't like the idea of "team pantheon"
The matchmaking in DoWII has you fighting pre-formed teams against pugs and it ruins it for me as I like to play pick up games.
Should be like the supcom system, with people able to play in a 2v2 ladder and a 3v3 ladder independant of the other stuff for random play, like current pantheon. Premades can go there and play against other premades, everyone has more fun that way.
To solve Mya's issues, we need personal banlist/ignore lists that communicate with the matchmaker.
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