Edit: Ok everone, it looks like the Great Shink Crisis is over. I would like to thank The Undying for his help. Now the rest of you can get back to the debate here. And if anyone sees Shink point me his way; the hunt is not yet over! Send out the Cylon armies to help find Shink!
Will since things at my Halo vs Star Wars thread have come to a stop for at least now, I thought this would be interesting.
Now some ground rules I hope will keep this a bit civil: Everything for both sides MUST be canon. No insulting either side( jokes from modified quots from games, books and TV episodes are ok). No wanking, no Q will snap his fingers and destroy the Covenant and Halo rings, I don't watch much Trek but I know enough: Q and his people will be the first to grab the mega size bag of popcorn for the show. No Borg wanking, if the Borg are so powerful than why can't they conquer about 150 planets? And no wanking the Master Chief, Flood, Forerunner tech and anything I forgot. I want this to be as fair and civil as possible.
Now lets go with a timeline of mid-TNG for ST and the end of the First Battle of Reach in Halo. Should that be a good timeline?
I suggest that if you do not know much about either side to read up on them.
Now! Let the battle begin!
Yes, it comes down to range and speed which Covi plasma torpedos have both of. There is one weakness they could use, but they would have to be close enough to fire and they will have a short firing window. The Covenant have to drop a small section of their shields around the weapon so it can fire, but they would only have a few seconds.
Also, the Covenant frigate from The Fall of Reach took two MAC rounds before the nuke was fired and knocked it's shields out and may have damaged the FTL drive.
This has been a UNSC transmission.
Which enterprise are we talking about? Enterpise D is a galaxcy class star ship and far superior to the old constitution. class. I am sure the Enterprise D would be able to match covenaut. Not so sure about the older one. I don't think its shields would hold.
Just want to clear something up, a isoton is actually closer to Gigatons, not Megatons.
P.S. I don't consider the Nova to be a feasible technology. Come on, 9 8 Megaton bombs (tops) creating a explosion with the same density as a neutron star. Total bull.
Do you have a source about the isotone? I can't find anything to officel. I know the number 2.6 and 2.7 megatons keeps coming up. (its kind of like the star wars ISD turbo laser power I have seen smaller then the hiroshima bomb to many megatons)
and phasers are total bull. as is moving faster than light without relatavistic effects. and the structure of the engines on the various NC-1171s. the in-line engine and hull structure is much stronger and more feasible, as it relies less on tensile strength. Under heavy damage, the UNSC and Covenant ships will function much better, due to back-ups and structural support.
this debate is not cenetered on the feasibility of the technology, but instead on which side is more powerful.
"Edit again: G's don't exist for pilots in Star Trek. They use a magical device called an inertial dampener to get rid of them! A common sense prerequisit for anything resembling interstellar warfare."
Yep, inertial dampeners are really taken for granted to much in sci-fi. Probably because there is pretty much NEVER an episode in star trek/stargate/anything in which they break. The speed at which even large, "slow" ships accelerate in sci-fi is by neccessity of everything not taking days to maneuver large enough to make humans into mush between the wall panelling.
This is shown quite well in one of the SGA episodes in season 3 or 4 (I think) where they nudge a ship out of dock without inertial dampeners. Even the tiny acceleration (nowhere near what the ship was capable of) is enough to knock out 2 of the 4 onboard.
forgive me, but I'm working off of memory, so you're just going to have to settle for me doing what the Star Trek side does: giving little to no reference data, and few measurements that are known. I do note that Josef did provide a good amount of references, tho
1) The Covenant Plasma Torpedoes can easily turn around on their earlier course, retaining their previous speed. This is due to the fact that they are not fire and forget weapons, like phasers, and are guided by magnetic field manipulation. this is the source of their speed. This was demonstrated by Captain Jacob Keyes, who first performed the Keyes Loop (I believe this was mentioned in First Strike, but can't be sure) in the Battle of Sigma Octanus IV (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Keyes_Loop).
2) to be able to completely crystallize a planet's surface in a matter of hours is no mean thing. planets are big. they have huge amounts of surface area. and even a fleet of two-three hundred ships (standard combat fleet size for the Covenant) of five to nineteen kilometer long ships will not cover very much space. Earth, a relatively small planet, has approximately (If I did my math right) 6966331437.57, 7000000000, or 7x10^9 square miles
3) there have been thirteen fleets mentioned in the Halo series, all of which involved in the war on the UNSC, most of which have two to three hundred ships each. The Second Fleet of Homogeneous Clarity consists of at a bare minimum 2.5 thousand capitol ships, with uncountable strikecraft. there must be many more fleets behind Covenant lines, maintaining order and garrisoning their worlds, should a rebellion or invasion arise.
4) The standard MAC gun, equipped on nearly all UNSC frigates, cruisers, and capitol ships, delivers a 600-ton projectile at a muzzle velocity of 600,000 mph. this results in 360,000,000,000 joules. that's 360 gigajoules of forceThe "Super-MAC", mounted on orbital MAC defense stations, and theorized to be mounted on the UNSC Supercarrier delivers 21.6 zettajoules of force, or 5867.5 Gigatons of TNT. This is from a 3,000 ton ferric-tungsten round with a muzzle velocity of approzimately 40% the speed of light. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Magnetic_Accelerator_Cannon)
5) Covenant ships are also armed with two other main weapon types: the Energy Projector, and the Pulse Laser Turret. The Pulse Laser Turret (PLT), seen in Halo: Combat Evolved in use against the Pillar of Autumn, is a commonly mounted weapon on Covenant ships, ranging in size from the handheld Beam Rifle, much like the human SRS 99D AM Sniper Rifle, to large scale anti-capitol ship weapons capable of melting through at least 45 centimeters of Titanium-A armor plating in a single shot. being a laser, this would pass through any Star Trek shield, as they are transparent. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_Laser)
The Energy Projector is a weapon mounted only on Covenant capitol ships, due to power constraints, and is the weapon used to "glass" planets. it is both an antiplanetary weapon, and is an anti-ship weapon. It has a range of at least 50,000 kilometers, exceeding even that of an orbital MAC gun, making it a long range sniping weapon that is absolutely devastating.when used in ship-to-ship combat, a single shot can remove a ship from combat by destroying its weaponry, disable a ship, or completely destroy a ship, with a single shot. They have been observed to "gut a ship from stem to stern in a single shot", such as the frigate Gettysburg in the Battle of Reach. Its size is variable, thus its power is also variable. it can be focused into a pinpoint, giving it insane amounts of power, and the ability to carve a ship apart, or can be expanded to cover square miles of land
6) The Nova bomb, which is nine fusion warheads encased in lithium triteride (from here on reffered to as LT shell), has huge destructive potential. So much, that is literally a planet-killer, and is nicknamed as such. loosely calculated, it has a 27 gigaton yield.this is because of a) nine fusion warheads, assumed at 30 megatons each; and b ) the LT shell reflects the blast in upon itself, thus increasing the strength a hundredfold and compressing the core to neutron star density(http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/NOVA_Bomb)
and 7) Inertial dampers are used by both sides of the Human-Covenant war, most extensively by the Covenant. The Covenant use them both for utility and for show, as evidenced by views of water flowing up, down, and sideways. this is reffered to as gravity manipulation, as well as inertial damping.
-Orodum
beware the ninja cylons!
Sorry I haven't been here for a few hours, I was trying to respond to the last two posts before my last and my computer first had massive lag and them froze. And I would like to thankJosef086 and Orodum for taking the lead for the Covenant armada will I was fighting with my PC. I'll be back in a bit after I can test to make sure it won't freeze again.
This is the sort of thing I hate with a passion. You say its closer to gigatons, but give no source beyond what you put up. Give a source to back you up, ok?
And so what the NOVA is not feasible technology? This is about who kicks who's ass. Not who ever has the more feasbile tech. And you have to remeber that the universe is a big place, anything could be possible. For all we know a Halo ring could appear out of Slipstream space and enter orbit around Jupiter of Saturn tomorrow.
And off of memory here is the size of the Covenant's ships. Frigate=1000 meters. Destroyer=1455 meters. Carrier=1455 meters. Cruiser, I can't remeber if it's larger then the others. CCS-class Battle Cruiser(CCS stands for Covenant Capital Ship)= 1782 meters. Battleship=2000 meters. Reverence-class Cruiser=3000 meters. Supercruiser=3566 meters. Assault Carrier=5346 meters. Supercarrier=it is unknown, but it would most likly range from 7 kilometers to 12 kilometers max.
Too many halo fanboys for a serious debate
ST plasma weapons are weak. Covenant tech is based off of what the Forerunner used, and I don't think guys that can move a star and the orbiting Dyson Sphere into a Slipspace rift a few meters across would have a weak weapon.
And you said "mostly energy" which means there is a soild casing for the explosives that can be hit. But even if that is not possible they can just run the plasma torpedos into them like the Spartans do in The Ghosts of Onyx.
And what were the yields of these nukes? 10 megatons? 20? 50? 100? Using "primitive nuclear weapons" that are very powerful the UNSC built the NOVA bomb which is more likly far more powerful the 27 gigatons that Halopedia gave it I think. UNSC Shiva warheads most likly became far more powerful during the war with the Covenant from 2525 to 2553. And thanks for the sources, I'll watch Enterprise next time its on.
First off it is the CCS-class Battle Cruiser that is 1.7 kilometers long. The Assault Carrier is the 5.3 kilometer ship. And I should have said small SSD since the Super Carrier could be 7 to 12 kilometers long. If the ship list you look at said frigates were 150 meters long go up and you will find a list of all Covenant ships, with Supercarrier at the end after the AC. And as already said, even with dozens of ships or hundreds of ships a planet is a big place. Can the Federation purify the surface of the planet, boil away the oceans and lakes and atmosphere with only 36 ships in one hour? And also the Covenant don't have to engage at such long ranges, they can jump in to say 300,000 kilometers then turn you into an expanding cloud of super heat gas and dust.
And I would say anything of the CCS-class and above would take out the Enterprise. You have to remeber that Covenant fleets come with dozens or hundreds of ships.
Good, will my PC is working again without freezing or lag.
That is one of the reasons to question everything Halopedia has.
The UNSC HAVOK tactical nuclear mines are 30 megatons (The Fall of Reach, pg 200. Who ever did that NOVA calc pulled the number of their ass. I can't recall it ever being said what type of warhead was in the NOVA, most likely SHIVAs.
To find the power of the NOVA bomb, we would need to calc its blast - and I don't think anything less than mid teratons could produce that result.
Plus we need to remember that when the Covenant glass a planet they boil/vaporize all oceans as well - which requires an insane amounts of energy.
Wrong! To many Trek fanboys who will not give me the data I need to compare with the Covenant. If the "primitive" UNSC can build a bomb powerful enough to " shatter a planet in two" then they are more advance then you think.
If you want a "serious debate" then start arguing about what ST has in this time line that would help it. If any one has an idea for a better ST time line bring it up. But if you want to debate start debating don't just attack fans or people who may just agree with Halo, do you see me really doing that? I known I got anger and lost my temper, but you should start debating before High Charity gets to ST Earth and sends down a re-armed Forerunner Dreadnought to destroy the surface.
This has been a United Front Against People Who Expect Every one Else to Agree with them and not fighting the enemy the right way transmission. Hm? That my be a bit to long, but you get the idea.
Yes, I agree that the calc for the NOVA was something that you would think anyone would know would be in the Teratons or above, but enough of the Halopedia data seems to fit else where. Also, were can I find a site that has Kilotons, Megatons, Gigatons, Teratons, and all the other listed in order?
Did a little math because I had nothing better to do(and wanted to know the answer myself)
Mass of Earth's oceans: 1.4E21Kg1.4E21 x 1000 = 1.4E24 gramsAssume 17 degress Celsius for oceans
Raise temperature to 100C1.4E24 * (100C-17C) * 4.186J/g C = 1.4E24 *(83)*4.186 = 1.4E24 * 347.438 = 4.864132E26 J4.864132E26 J to raise the temperature from 17C to 100CNow add the energy required for vaporization:1.4E24 g * 2261 J/g = 3.1654E27 JAdd: 4.864132E26 J + 3.1654E27 J = 3.6518132E27 J1 kiloton = 4.184E12 J3.6518132E27 J / 4.184E12 J/kt = 8.728E14 kt1 pt = 1E3 tt = 1E6 gt = 1E9 mt = 1E12 kt1 et = 1E3 pt = 1E6 tt = 1E9 gt = 1E12 mt = 1E15 kt8.728E14 / 1E12 = 872.8 peta-tons total to vaporize all of Earth's oceansOn page 8 of The Fall of Reach it says that 3 dozen Covenant ships(destroyers and cruisers) managed to vaporize the oceans and glass all land on a planet during the hour the Master Chief watched.The Covenant are throwing around very heavy firepower.Also, super MACs are NOT mounted in any ship produced by the UNSC. The entire super MAC station IS the MAC, in fact the power requirements are so massive that Reach needed massive planet based power generators to power its super MACs. Since there is no physical connection between the super MACs and Reach, the UNSC must be sending power wirelessly in some form.If anyone sees a mistake in my calculations or formulas used please point it out.Vaporizing water formula from here, joules in a kitoton here
Scientific prefixes here
where did you get 9.8 megatons? the most basic nuclear technology demonstrated in the halo series is several times that magnitude. Not only that, but if that bomb was miniturized then it could fit in a stealth ship, which can then drop it off on an enemy planet. so it would be far more powerful than that and very practical. also, i forgot to mention inertial dampeners, thier abscense is actually very common in sci-fi. just not usually in movies or games. Read some books, they are good for you surprisingly.
Its late and I'm tired, but if I'm right then the NOVA bomb is using somthing besides Shivas.
6000 Megatons x 9 x 100=540 Teratons. Yikes! Just one of the warheads without the rest could destroy any Covenant or ST ship besides the big mobile stations like High Charity.
And as I said its late and I'm really tired so if I got this wrong tell me. Good night.
I am a bigger fan of star trek then I a halo. I do just feel that the covenaut fleet could whipe a federation fleet out (thats assuming they have the same number of ships). Now in the new star trek movie that romulan ship looks like something that could truely go toe to toe with a covenaunt cruiser, I beleive it was called the Narada. The did not show it but it single handly took out a fleet of 47 klingon warbirds. Size i think was said to be about 5 miles. Its supposed to be from the futur and uses advanced torpedos of some kind. Now in the new movie all the ships seem to be more powerful then the TOS ships or other star trek seriers, of course its not really canon.....
I totally disagree, I really dont' think it really could compare, trek ships are much more faster in movement, even weapons are more powerful, along with that, photon torpedos gives a yield of 25 isotons, and then quantum torpedos gives a maximum yield of 50 isotones, according Memory Alpha, the best trek wiki out on the web, one photon torpedo of 25 isoton could level a city, and then if you just double that to around 54 isotons with a gravametric charge can blow up a small planet, now I would like see halo weapons do that
Beside, trek have the possiblity of using the omega molecule which the Halo people can't even begin to harvest.
well several megatons can demolish a city, the UNSC use weapons rated in the gigaton range. thats 1000 megatons per gig. personally, i would be terrified if i had the UNSC gunning for me with weapons like that. also, the numbers dont support the idea that a grav charge could destroy a planet. it would take far more than double the power to destroy a city, to destroy a planet. small or otherwise. im not saying that trek weapons are pea shooters, but they arent almighty weapons of war. and the omega particle wouldnt matter if the halos were activated, all sentient life would be eradicated.
Considering that 'isotons' are a fictional unit of measurement, until someone provides calculations on what one isoton is equivelent to they are totaly useless in this debate.
Is it really hard for people on the Star Trek side to properly cite their claims?
I have provided weapon range and weapon speed for the Covenant that is beyond anything the Star Trek side has proved.
I am honestly starting to get annoyed at the claims made about Star Trek without evidence.
Next time someone makes a claim about Star Trek, I want the episode/movie that backs it up. Even better, provide a video link of it happening.
Failure to provide evidence to back up a claim will result in it being dismissed until evidence is provided.
For the sake of comparison can we not use the isotons? Or at least use the conversions. According to what i found its about 2.6 megatons for an isoton. So it sounds like a 65-130 megatons for the torpedos in star trek. A UNSC shiva nuke is about 80 (correct me if I am wrong).
I do believe the planet thing was some to the effect of tuvoc (forgive my spelling) in voyager asking what are we going to do blow up a small planet? I don't think they really ment it would take out a small planet. I doubt its enoght to destory a planet or even a moon for that matter.
To give some prespective the largest nuke to ever be detonated was the russian 50 megaton tsar bomb. I beleive the blast area was something like 40km wide. It caused 3rd degree burns over 100km and even could be felt for something like a 1000km. So I have no doubt the torpedos can take down cities. But how many of them and how many ships would it take to destroy everything on a planet like the covenaunt do.
I won;t argue about speed, I am not so sure that speed in normal space is so different between the two. I am still going with covenaut winning in a battle but, not saying its going to be easy.
I should not when I say star trek I only mean federation. There are other races out there that would fair much better.
One photon torpedo with a yield of 25 isotons destroys a small city, and a yield of 54 isotons destroys a small planet, suggesting that mass measurements in Star Trek are mysteriously exponential. If by "small planet", they mean something like the moon, the lower limit of the energy required to destroy the moon is 1.234 * 10^29 J, or about 30 trillion megatons of explosive force. So a single photon torpedo in Star Trek carries 30 trillion megatons of explosive force--and that's not even the largest torpedo, as higher-class torpedoes have yields of up to 200 isotons, and a range of 8 million KM. The torpedoes would not even have to come close hitting any vessel in Halo, even considering that explosions in space dissipate rather rapidly, they could miss by miles and destroy fleets.
((VOY: "Dreadnought", "Scorpion, Part II", "Living Witness", "Human Error", "The Voyager Conspiracy")
The Nova bomb, by comparison, carries about 5.4 million megatons as you mentioned, and was a prototype bomb that cost an awfully large amount, and was very heavy and apparently difficult to launch. Whereas a photon torpedo is easy to launch. If the ship is stationary, the torpedo can be launched at warp 9 ((TNG: "Pen Pals", "The Emissary"), or 1516c (http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm). At this speed, the photon torpedo would traverse its 8 million km range in about .01774 seconds.
So to sum: a photon torpedo has a yield of 30 trillion megatons, can be fired from 8 million kilometers, and can reach its target faster than the blink of an eye.
I've stayed out of this debate so far, but why does everyone have to bring up the halos like they are the end-all-be-all ultimate weapon or something? This kept happening in the Star Wars vs. Halo thread, too.
Yes, they kill all sentient life, but so what? That applies to Covenant as well. You light one up, and everyone is screwed. Only a complete moron would actually use them as a weapon.
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