Two beliefs of a Regulus player:
1. Regulus on his own is not in need of any balancing. He stacks up against the other DG's just fine.
2. A well-played all-Regulus coordinated snipe team is, at worst, imbalanced and, at best, uninteresting to play against. Either way, bad for the game.
Difficult balancing issue:
How do they nerf the all-Reg snipe squad (which would be good) without making Regulus on his own any weaker (which would be bad)?
Suggested answer:
After being targed by a snipe, a demigod may not be targeted by a subsequent snipe for an amount of time equal to the first snipe's cooldown. This is a good solution because, by definition, it can have no effect on a solo Regulus. It should also have little effect on a multi-Reg team that isn't coordinating snipes.
Thoughts?
Also keep in mind that a Regulus in close combat doesn't contribute much sniping power in that special point. To do that huge burst you need multiple Regs as far away from the enemy as possible.
If they hide behind towers let them, farm their creeps, let your creeps die against their towers, cap all the flags you can reach.
Also, I would like to see how two Regs hold a lane early to mid game, against lets say a UB and Sedna, or really any combo with a support hero, while lets say Rook stalls on the other side of the map.
Basically you are saying that putting 3 heroes in a team that have no way of maintaining early game map control, and which basically is based on sitting behind towers and taking potshots at people while they take all initiative is somehow a way to win games.
Ooh my, guess what, in the time you take to get your Snipe off cooldown, my Sedna has healed me twice. Also, I am Rook, I will just eat a tower.
Warscore is the thing you get for holding flags, which allows you to upgrade your citadel.
You can say what you want, with 3 Regs you are giving up early map control, I will just heal through your damage while my UB partner spits on you every time you show your face.
This means we will get earlier upgrades, earlier +gold, earlier catapults. Also, you will loose your front line towers, giving you even less protection against mid game pushes.
If you really don't loose any gold/xp by sitting around in the back all time (which I seriously doubt, has someone tested that?), maybe that is a thing that should be fixed.
"Also keep in mind that a Regulus in close combat doesn't contribute much sniping power in that special point. To do that huge burst you need multiple Regs as far away from the enemy as possible."
"If they hide behind towers let them, farm their creeps, let your creeps die against their towers, cap all the flags you can reach."
My entire post was about multiple regs and I mentioned the favour item to do the damage to the mobs that then won't reach the towers.
Of course you don't loose gold, gold is aquired by killing mobs, killing demigods and holding gold mines. In cata you can do all 3 while camping and on most maps you can.
You also talking about a custome game hoping your allies pick a sedna setup, it won't always happen, if your the 3 regs making the team it's just win.
Not arguing anymore because you don't read anything before you speak.
Scale sniper range with the skill and it's fixed, problem solved.
From Chrome earlier:
You:
Maybe you should start reading first. And yes, if I am in a custom game and see 3 regulus picked, I will select Sedna or QoT
Also, why do I argue with somebody calling people idiots in every second post.
From personal experience, 3 Regs get wiped in a 3v3 if they concentrate on snipe. I played another one of these and took the favor item that gives 1K HP every 45 seconds to everyone within a certain radius. The game wasn't even contested because they couldnt hold a single flag. And they didn't get much cash because they had to camp at the towers.
Something doesnt add up in your story. The Regulus players won't lose out on any gold by camping at the towers, because creep spawns have to end up at towers in certain lanes. So any Regulus who is at a tower in a creep lane will automatically accumulate gold and XP at a good rate unless you can chase him out. The only thing he may not due is claim new flags easiy, so you may be able to initially lead the war score. But that's not easy to do, because a decent Regulus will pepper you with +2 range autofire and stack mines as he levels up. If any player gets damaged to about half health, he needs to run back to the crystal, or else multiple Snipes will kill him. At that point Regulus claims the flag on you and takes the war score lead or evens it back up again.
Regulus doesn't hold the lane. Regulus protects his tower, which holds the lane. In your example the 1 Regulus can keep in range of his tower and hold off 2 demigods from killing the tower. The 2 enemy DGs will hold the flag temporarily, but they won't be able to kill the local Regulus or destroy the tower. If any DG gets lower than half health he will get Sniped by all Regulus and either killed or driven off. So even in your example, you are wasting 2 demigods on 1 lane to temporarily hold 1 flag while the Regulus team is all spread out and dominating the rest of the map freely. How does this support your example that the non-Regulus team is maintaining early map control?
- Creeps killed by towers give you no XP or gold, so if you just sit behind your towers, you will earn less XP and get outleveled/econed, especially if the other side has a few +exp or +gold flags/upgrades.
- If you are 2 vs 1 against one regulus you will not only hold the flag, you will also keep the 1 Reg almost completely useless by the harrassment you can do. You will also push, killing their towers, etc. Take UB and Sedna for example, UB runs in takes a few hits from Tower and Reg and spits on the Reg, Sedna heals, pull back. Same for QoT/Rook, shield, run in, structural transfer/uproot the tower, run out. If one Reg manages to prevent 2 of you from pushing in the early/mid game you suck.
- Take HP items, Healing Potion, Monks, stay at max HP. No way a reg pelting away ocassionally with un-upgraded autoattack will get you to low HP.
- If they are spread out all over the map, they won't snipe with max effect, as at least one is in close range.
- A Regulus that gets Mines and +2 range and whatever else you are supposing he has wont snipe all that much. If you are getting pushed out of a lane just because Reg has more range than you, you suck. You have skills too, go use them. If he has Mines, use cheap ass Minotaurs or Wards to counter them.
- If the Reg gets Mana items early on to support permanent sniping, he has no hp, thus is ultra fragile, which means he has to sit behind towers. See Point 1. If he does not, he can either snipe ocassionally or camp out on a crystal.
"- Creeps killed by towers give you no XP or gold, so if you just sit behind your towers, you will earn less XP and get outleveled/econed, especially if the other side has a few +exp or +gold flags/upgrades."
Yes they do, i've just tested it to double check, you do recieve xp and gold without even attacking the creeps Dumbass (<<<<<<<<Note not idiot used here)
"- Take HP items, Healing Potion, Monks, stay at max HP. No way a reg pelting away ocassionally with un-upgraded autoattack will get you to low HP."
Again that's one of the top features of the reg setup making you waste money on pots while they don't have to.
"Also, why do I argue with somebody calling people idiots in every second post."
Because I woudn't call you an idiot if you wern't an idiot, idiot.
We're discussing 3 reg level 1 snipe is 250 damage, what's 3x 250, Well done!. If you mean 1 reg does 500 max damage at max range if your playing this tactic you want 1 volley as close as you can so hopefully your cd's off by the time thier leaving your max range for a second shot.
I do read English quite well, but unfortunately, I cannot understand what you wrote. Three Regulus sniping at once at max distance on level 1 would do a total of 1500 points of damage, which is only enough to kill another Regulus, since most other Demigods have over 2000 health points. I'm not sure what tactic you are talking about.
OF THE SKILL,
I was talking about damage output. Again, I'm sorry but I can't understand what you wrote.
No, I mean that your tactic implied that the Regulus team stayed by their citadel crystal, doing nothing but failing at sniping, while the other team pushes forwards, and especially with Rooks, completely disregards the snipes because of their massive health and structure transfer skill. Also, the Queen of Thorns shield can again completely disregard snipes, and Oak can continue fighting even if you did manage to kill him with the last stand skill. Heck, a mana buffed Erebus would be able to swarm and mist until swarm cools down, and then swarm again into another mist (slight stretch, I know). Anyway, it is my belief that using those skills they would be able to slowly push forward while you are standing still which would mean defeat in the long run.
Oh man, I shouldn't even answer to you...
- I should have been more specific, you do recieve xp for standing next to dying creeps, but you get significantly more XP if you kill them yourself, as you can read in the strategy forum. You can also easily test this yourself, get TB and once let the first wave kill each other and once AE them down, and see what gets you more XP. Blasting the creepwave gives you about double the XP than not doing it.
- You don't even need Healthpots, Sedna/QoT or Structural Transfer or Monks or good teamwork will suffice.
Thats the last post I make in answer to you jerk.
As posted earlier, you don't have the basic facts of the game down. If you don't realize that farming creeps within radius of a tower is just as effective as doing it anywhere else, you don't have grasp on a core concept of this game yet. It makes it impossible to take anything you argue seriously.
I doubt that you'll admit how much you got pwned in this debate. But I'll bet other neutral posters do. And they are the ones I hope are listening.
+1 chrome.
I would like to consider myself as a neutral poster, but I think you missed his follow up to the post you quoted, which seems to still directly contract your claims, and make a better case of it:
And you, IIXII, could you please clarify the points I raised in my reply to your post, even if you "hate idiots like me who don't read"?
"I do read English quite well, but unfortunately, I cannot understand what you wrote. Three Regulus sniping at once at max distance on level 1 would do a total of 1500 points of damage, which is only enough to kill another Regulus, since most other Demigods have over 2000 health points. I'm not sure what tactic you are talking about."
Yes it's 1500 MAX, i'm counting it as 750 Minimum since base damage is 250 per person, I count the base because like I said you want 1 set of volleys at minimal distance and another set as there just leaving, if you can get 3 volleys then the enemy fails.
"I was talking about damage output. Again, I'm sorry but I can't understand what you wrote."
Think of regulus range, 2 4 6, that is 3 levels of skill. But rank 6 is obtained at level 8. If your english is bad it's no problem,
So there are 4 skill levels obtained for sniping (not including deadeye) but they are obtained at different Demigod levels.
"No, I mean that your tactic implied that the Regulus team stayed by their citadel crystal, doing nothing but failing at sniping, while the other team pushes forwards, and especially with Rooks, completely disregards the snipes because of their massive health and structure transfer skill. Also, the Queen of Thorns shield can again completely disregard snipes, and Oak can continue fighting even if you did manage to kill him with the last stand skill. Heck, a mana buffed Erebus would be able to swarm and mist until swarm cools down, and then swarm again into another mist (slight stretch, I know). Anyway, it is my belief that using those skills they would be able to slowly push forward while you are standing still which would mean defeat in the long run."
Seriously you have to read before you post your driving me insane ffs. I said you don't have to crotch rub the crystal comon use your brain, you can easily get 3 volleys out of mana before having to return to the crystal and chances are you'll still be in range when you get back. You have the entire field behind your towers.
If the rook or whatever is hitting your towers you can skirmish forward and plant a few shots then co-ordanite a strike. Alternatly after a few levels you can mine up all the towers so meele classes will get hit by mines then clapped by snipe volleys. If rook pops a tower you can snipe it move forward and hit it whatever.
Don't forgot that's 750 damage from heaven's wrath they can do-ordinate if they choose to save it hits the entire field. 2 Regulus or even any class can pop the trash when there engaging at the flags, still gain full xp gold and levels. Or if they see a kill co-ordinate.
So if you say 1500 at level 1 is max damage from 3 snipes. Assume they don't get healed or shielded or pot. That's 3000 damage from 2 volleys and another 750 (Pissible 1500 if there's enough time)from heaven's wrath. That's a hard amount of hp to start with at the beginnig of level 1.
Ah, now I get it.
I still think that the 3000 damage at level 1 you're talking about only applies to one demigod and only if that one demigod is stupid enough not to back away when he gets hit the first time (remember, no tracking at level 1). So the other two have ample time to level up faster still.
So I still don't think there's a chance in hell they can get ahead by only doing this. And the Regulus mines aren't that effective until level 3 in my exprience, and even then, the Rook doesn't care much and an UB player often has a heart to heal with.
Granted, mines, wrath and then snipe will take pretty much anyone down, but think about the time you're wasting setting that up. I mean, what happens if a demigod comes calling while you're laying the mines?
I believe that effective harassing is still the best tactic, and coordinated sniping doesn't sound very time effective so you will lag behind until the point where the level gap between the teams will get you steamrolled.
It would make since to me that after teleporting, snipe would have to be recast, i mean if you were aiming at someone and they teleported away wouldnt you be kinda "wtf", when i say recast i mean without a cooldown since the shot would not have gone off, allowing them to still snipe, but this would balance is so that if someone teleported to a crystal of health they would not die since they had a couple seconds there while snipe was recast. but if they simply teleported to another flag they would still be fair game for sniping
snipe could even autorecast and just add a 2 or 3 second delay to the shot if they teleported. it would give regulus enough time to cancel the snipe if he wished due to teleport, but still enough time for it to stop the DG being sniped from being able to use a healing potion, artifacte potions excluded and HoL may not heal fast enough depending on how low you are.
Wow, this is fun. I'm gonna point you guys back here just for posterity - http://forums.demigodthegame.com/335732. A few general thoughts - A team of Generals will beat a team of Regs, if teams have equal skill. On larger maps in 4v4 or more it's not a disadvantage to have more than one Reg, but bad to have more than two. In skilled games Snipe Regs are more useful, as Chrome Weasel points, as lane holders. You won't usually get a kill from snipes, but you will be able to drive opponents offlane. An important function of skilled-game Snipe which has been ignored by all comments I've read in this post is its efficiency against buildings outside LoS. Two Regs cross-sniping towers will bring your defenses down quickly. I saw someone say that UB Spit doesn't stack. It does. Stacking Regs is only useful when your opponents don't have a specific counter. There are several that come to mind, not least pushing strong up a given lane with all DGs, making sure to mutually support and heal, and basically carving through to the heart of the enemy before they can level or whittle you down.
Finally, I'd be happy to test (as opposed to talk, endlessly) this out with any 5 players that want to get a game Sunday morning EST
i dont like doubles in games it is boring
The only time The Rook has the ability to reliably kill a Regulus is when he teleport-jacks his ass at a flag and RollSlams him (Often a very satisfying two-hit nuke). Even then, the Reg _should_ see the incoming port, mine- and run away. If I boulder roll you from even a small distance away I will not be able to get to you AND slam you before you flap your little wings and sail off. I literally need to be in melee range next to a stunned Regulus in order to kill him. A regulus player has no reason to ever afford a Rook this advantage throughout the course of a match.
Even playing with the speed favor item, speed boots, speed wand, etc. all stacked, you have a very hard time catching a Regulus who can simply kite you all day long AND kill towers with impunity.
Maybe there would be some added dynamic with multiple rooks that I am missing. Or maybe I just haven't unlocked the key to fighting the little prick of a fallen angel.
Rooks also are much squishier than a lot of people think in the first half of the match. A level one Regulus autoattack is a serious threat to a Rook. And until level 5 I have literally zero chance of catching him if he isn't half brain dead.
I don't profess to know everything, of course. YMMV
here is my the solution:
you have 1 of 4 choices,
1. add more heroes into the game to allow for only 1 of each demigod to be used in the same match, (same situation as zeus in dota, he isnt always picked in the game unlike reg is atm)
2. reduce the range of the spell.
3. push back snipe in the spell tree (and give it more damage).
4. increase its cooldown.
the damage is not the problem of this spell.
please, stop posting about:
you are off topic.
It's on topic. Those are the reasons it's balanced.
Maybe I am wrong on this, but don't you only get gold if you do a certain percentage of damage to the grunt? So yeah, you get gold camping at a tower, but not nearly as much when you do it away from the tower. Easy enough to test, but I am at work right now.
Further, it is not hard at all to chase a Reg away from a tower. When you kill all his grunts, you follow yours in so that they take the tower damage and then you chase Reg away taking minimal damage yourself. This works well with UB and his spit, or TB and FB, or Oak and penitence, or QT and Bramble attack, or anyone else with range damage. It's a harassing tactic but Reg has low health anyway so he cannot stay the lane consistently. And if he is moving away when your grunts come in range, he isn't getting gold or exp. And if any of the flags are gold mines, then it really starts to add up.
The paper theory is great and all that, but in practice, I have never seen multiple snipes to be that big of a threat. If you know that there are multiple regs (which you do at the start of the game) then you take the right favor items and equipment from the start. I personally take the wand that has a 1k heal every 45s favor item when playing multi regs. Let them drop their mana on sniping me. I'm healing it in the same time as it takes them to fire another snipe.
Where the difficulty from multiple Regs comes from is not snipe. It's their sickening ability to kill towers. That is what should be changed. You should have to get at least two levels of range before you can hit a tower outside the radius. Two Regs can chain down defenses well before any other toon has the capability.
That's not the same point I'm making. People were complaining that Snipe was overpowered because you could gib another player in one shot. That's NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about multiple Regulus spread out and controlling multiple lanes while they can still all support each other with Snipe from across the map. I've explained it in several posts.
To be frank, the insta-gib is a fairly easy concept to grasp. I'm talking about the strategic value of Snipe at a high level with multiple Regulus. It's a more involved concept that's totally lost on newbies. To be fair, I do understand that not everyone is going to agree. But you have to at least have a good handle on how to slowly win this game over the course of time to appreciate my point. If you think that killing other demigods is the point of this game, you probably don't get what I'm saying. Go re-read my posts. If you realize that you win this game by dominating lanes and farming creeps, you should easily be able to see what I'm getting at.
i dont like the increaseing its cooldown it is already about 12secs 2 but the others i would agree with but what would replace it as a 1-4-7-10-15 ability because the only othher skill is mark of as betrayer which is 5-10-15
so how much dmg would u have it do seeing as most battles take less then 15 i think it would be arround lvl 5 - 500 dmg plus range lvl 10 1000 + range lvl 15 1500 +range
the increaseing its dmg and changing its lvl would proberly make it worse and just make it so more people use the dps build for reg which is less skill full and is boring to play
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