Below, I have included a list of changes I hope the development team will consider with short explanations for each. Thoughts?
- Some type of reward for Buying Citadel Upgrades: Most games I have played nobody wants to be the guy buying the necessary Citadel upgrades (Priests, Regenerating building health, etc.) This is because the investment required is too great and does not personally benefit your Demigod the way saving up for that super artifact or item would be. There's already such a high demand on your gold (Generals in particular) that it's hard to justify being the one to blow your money on the common good even when you know it's necessary. Most of the time it is done grudgingly or procrastinated until the last minute. This should not be! I recommend a small buff to the Demigod who purchases it, perhaps Experience? Extra HP/Mana regen for a bit? Something like that would offer more incentive.
- Greater Varying default speed: It seems that almost all of the demigods move at the same speed by default. This seems contrary to the logic of the variance of base stats among Demigods. Shouldn't the more fragile heroes get a little extra speed to compensate? Perhaps the more Durable classes be a little slower? It makes very little sense for them to all have the same speed just as it would for them to do the same damage and have the same base HP when their skills are balanced around what they are capable of.
- Lower range on Snipe: Snipe is possibly the strongest Nuke in the game and has an insane range. I know it can easily be compensated for by having potions or with the various classes that have heals/shields. But that argument lends itself to the notion that the Torchbearer's fireball only having a medium range means it's UNDERPOWERED, which it clearly is not. The logic is then, to conclude that Being able to shoot almost all of the way across the map for massive damage with very little drawback (Yes, I know Reg is fragile and has very little base mana) in terms of making Regulus vulnerable to do it is somewhat ridiculous. Especially when combined with land mines, sniper scope, and maim. This one will probably generate some flames, but I think it's a pretty legitimate gripe. I do play Reg a lot too, so it's not as though I'm picking on somebody else's dude.
- Experience flag lowered from 20%: The need for this flag early game is WAY too great on some maps because of it's value. 10 or 15% seems more reasonable. If your team holds this flag early on suddenly your demigods are all 2-3 levels higher than your opponents. It's simply too great of a benefit. None of the other flags provide anywhere near this great of a bonus (except portal flags). I understand this is to incentivize battles over the flag. But it should be a valid strategy to ignore it and still be able to compensate for the disparity with better play.
- Chat Lobbies: It'd be nice if (similar to battle.net for Starcraft and WC3) we were first directed to a chat lobby before going to join a custom game or STAYED in the chat lobby when queueing for a Pantheon or RT Skirmish (Also add Arranged Team Skirmish and Pantheon and different team size brackets) and then Returned to the specific lobby we joined upon game completion/leaving.
- DO NOT include the "Concede" option as stated in a Journal: The concede option as described would ONLY ever be used to screw teammates. If you're quitting the game, why would you care to give your opponents an easy time of winning by removing your Demigod from play? I can see this option existing if you were the last human player in a game. But if it's available from the start, it will primarily see use in screwing Teammates.
- Variance between factions: It'd be nice if Dark side had devils instead of angels, etc. etc. with symmetrical behavior and stats but variety in appearence. This would remove some of the confusion one can feel when swapping from one team to the other frequently.
- Lower damage/healing on Rook's "Structural Transfer": He is unquestionably the best at pushing through towers and with the ability to retreat to a field of his own towers, becomes very hard to repel. Last night I played as the Rook in a game, our team was getting out played when I got rank 2 of ST and just started walking through their automated defenses and running away when I was attacked. I don't believe there was anything they could have done to stop me with all the speed boosts I was wearing. Imo our team should have lost but we won! It seemed this one ability was a complete game changer. That usually means it's too strong and needs some retuning.
Anyway, these are my thoughts. What are yours?
Here are some of my thoughts:
It's too bad that whole families have to be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs.
If you're in a boxing match, try not to let the other guy's glove touch your lips, because you don't know where that glove has been.
If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy.
Haha well-played. Thanks for the bump.
wow its pretty amazing that everything u asked for is completley dumb except for chat lobbies, which are already basically there
great post!
What specifically is dumb and why? Be constructive. And chat lobbies aren't there at all really.
There is one main-chat lobby.
Then fragile heroes like TB and UB actually have speed buffs from skills, rook does not.
I agree with the variety of different mobs on each side.
About the rewards for upgrading citadel, I wouldn't change since you can easilly stemroll opponent teams which are dumb-enough to actually not buy 'em. And I gladly buy 'em even though I am playing TB most of the time.
And snipe is rather annoying with that almost unlimited snipe range, I say yes to lower it's range.
About that structual transfer, I personally like rooks trying this tactics on my team. I just wait till they engage the tower with 1/2HP and bam Shatter their skill and they are dead, but I can see your frustration if you don't have anything to interrupt it.
The reward 'should' be a greater push towards the team's objective. If some of the citadel upgrades aren't worth their cost in that respect (and I feel that several of them are in that category), then I'd say that's more of a balance issue.
Fireball isn't underpowered because it's used while the opponent is in range of preceding/follow-up attacks. Snipe has obscene range but it's only truly effective on someone that's already nearly dead as it has a relatively long cooldown and a long charge. Firing snipe-shots at someone who's safely across the map is never going to be more than a nuisance. I don't know what we're comparing it to but the damage isn't 'that' amazing either.
Teammates get screwed either way under the current system. Having an AI that feeds the enemy team with kills is just as bad, if not worse, than having a crappy player who, at the very least, is capable of running away. As far as giving opponent's an easy time, look at this from the other side - if you join a game to play against actual people and someone on the other team bails, why should you be forced to play out a boring comp-stomp to get your win? If you forfeit, you should be done. Either way, your team is probably screwed but what sense does it make to punish the other team for sticking it out?
The other 'issues', I'm fairly indifferent towards.
Guys, I just want to know what do you think about what I posted on another topic from Froggyboy:
Sry, double post
There is cash for destroying towers in DG? And cash/xp for killing creeps is so insignificant, that I really wouldn't bother to deny in DG.
My wish for this game is a buff for Queen of Thorns, at least a slight one. She's doing very poorly so far, with the pantheon statistics being evidence.
Snipe does almost as much Damage as Fireball and has HUGE range and no minimum range, so you can snipe in every situation you could fireball, but you can't fireball when you can snipe. Yeah sniping a full HP Demigod from across the map is kinda pointless, but being able to execute someone who is way behind their towers when no other DG could get them is kinda nuts or when you're behind your towers safe and sound.
What ability does the TB have that makes him go faster? What about Reg? Besides, speed is another base stat, it should be different base just like all the other stats are from demigod to demigod. It will give more variance in playstyles and create a truly different flavor from character to character.
As to the rewards when buying upgrades: yes, the upgrades themselves are a reward but everyone benefits while the person buying them is expending their own gold and suffering a penalty. I'm not saying give them a full level worth of XP, but a small incentive to be the one buying it would balance out the loss of gold to you personally in combination with the boon of having the units or bonuses.
In the example of Structural Transfer I was talking about I was the Rook doing that and my team was outplayed. But because ST is so good especially early on in destroying towers, the tables were completely turned. I only attacked the towers when I could see the other team fighting my team elsewhere. It's not completely broken but it needs to be toned down I think.
It does less damage at close range, has a large casting time which makes it easier to interrupt (and the fact that you're not auto-attacking or using other damage skills during the charge mitigates your overall damage output a bit), and has a much larger cooldown than fireball. In a given fight, I'm almost guaranteed to land two fireballs. Snipe isn't quite so reliable after the first shot and because of the aforementioned long cast-time, I generally wouldn't want to try it anyway.
As I recall, the fire aura improves your movement speed a bit while you're in fire-form.
Sounds like the very definition of sniping, but hey, what do I know?
Don't forget the health bar bug as well. You snipe someone with a sliver of health only to see that they actually are at 49% health.
Those are what you call idiots. They will learn to adapt in due time or forever be stuck playing pubs. There is no need to change that. Why bother to suit the newbs and noobs? The newbs will learn and the noobs will be noobs. Getting those upgrades IS the benefit itself. So some people still haven't realized this is a team game, well sucks to be their teammates doesn't it? I guess people will have to start forming clans and play inhouses and CvC's, just like in every other game.
He's right, and you should listen to him.
You recall correctly, but from my experience you stick to fire-form only for mana regen and boost weapon damage after switching to frost-form.
YEah that's the definition of the word "Snipe" but my point is that in this game that's too much. And I think Snipe and Fireball have the same cast time? And snipe doesn't lose all that much from distance. Not to mention again, in combination with landmines! I just think 90 yds is way too long.
I don't think Fire Aura is much of a boon in terms of movement speed. I thought it was only attack speed?
Fireball has a one second cast. Snipe has a two second cast. It may not seem like much but that extra second is an eternity when someone with Silence, Mass Charm, Frost Nova, Boulder Roll, etc. is standing next to you. That's also roughly one auto-attack worth of damage that you're missing out on when compared to the TB (which means you're doing less damage over time, especially since Regulus players tend to go heavier on weapon-damage and attack speed boosts than TB players).
Snipe gains 50 damage for every 15 yards of range. That's a loss of 300 damage if you're shooting someone inside most of the fireball range.
At level 3, it gives you and nearby allies a move-speed bonus of 15%. Among other things.
And now for some other relevant numbers:
Mana
A level 4 fireball costs 540 mana for a DG with a huge amount of mana (1100 with a 150 gain per level). A level 4 snipe costs 750 mana for a demigod who isn't so well off (884 with a 64 gain per level).
Cooldown
Snipe takes 15 seconds to re-charge. Fireball takes 7. For every one snipe, the TB can land two fireballs and again, the TB will be much more likely to have the mana to do it.
Damage
A level 4 fireball deals 1050 damage (1350 if you take Fire and Ice). A level 4 snipe deals 700 standard and can go up to 1000 at maximum range. At maximum range, however, you're not going to be following up with mines or anything else. At close range, fireball is 'much' more dangerous.
Upgrading your citadel is massively important and not doing it can and will lose the game for your team. IMO play more, try to be selfish every single game (and have your partners do the same) and watch what happens when your opponents upgrade thier fortress and your team does not.
Basicly I think you're wrong. Part of what makes the game intresting is the tough choices of, "do I be selfish or do I upgrade my team". The best players/teams will strike a balance between the two.
The speed variance is subtle, again I think more playing is required. I think the speeds are based more on, melee Vs ranged. Ranged heroes tend to move slower due to the advantage of having a much longer engagement range. Melee heroes have to get in close to deal damage and need the tools to actually make that happen so they start off with greater speed. Of course all Demigods have the ability to modify this via gear. If you want to move faster, purchase the gear/favor items that make that happen.
It's part of how Reg plays and I'm not convinced it's needed. Compairing TB to Reg is like compairing apples to oranges. See Sakhari post above he outlines the diffrences betweent the two powers well!
This is not a bad idea, but doing so will weaken the value of that flag. Often this flag is in a non-stategic point meaning you have to sacrifice time away from the primary hot spots to take it which is a cost and increases the investmit.
I can't agree more. Currently the sense of community is very disconnected!
I also think for the most part that this is a bad idea.
The Rook is primarily a siege Demigod and currently being really good at taking out towers helps make up for his slow speed (which I'd argue makes him fairly hard to play). A single game of you playing Rook is not enough data to base a change on as it's purely incidental.
-Jara
re: Citadel Upgrades
- there's already a favor reward for buying the most upgrades
- you already get buffs for buying them, thats what you're buying in fact. more exp, more gold, better reinforcements, better towers, etc.
- if a player doesn't understand that team-wide upgrades are usually bigger benefit to their chances of winning then being a ball hog and saving up for artifacts then its the player that needs to improve, the game system doesn't need revision for this
re: Default Move Speed
- there is already significant variance
- Beast and Vamp have default speed of 6.3 (+5% from base speed of 6.0)
- Rook has default speed of 5.4 (-10% from base speed of 6.0)
- there are only 8 Demigods, how much more variance do you want? move speeds have to be relatively close together or else move speed buffs and debuffs would be much less meaningful
re: Range of Snipe
- it does less damage than most other nukes, and has a longer cooldown than every other nuke, and has a longer cast time than every other nuke.
- its only real advantage is the range, thats the whole point of the skill, lowering the range is an extremely awful idea.
- its a support skill. you need someone else to spot for you if you want to snipe further than 30 units away. it encourages team-work, which makes it a good skill that is better for better players.
re: Exp Flag
- if the flag is important than you should fight over it. both teams have equal access to it. personally i think the 15% health flag is even more important than this one, as are neutral portal flags and neutral gold mine flags.
- try teleport scrolls and flag locks if you really want to hold a flag.
- there are much bigger issues in the design of some of the maps than 20% vs. 15% on the experience flag. i disagree that this is something that even needs to be considered for change.
- lets see if we can address the Erebus Bat Swarm exploit on Crucible first, or better still get some more medium sized maps in the game than just friggin Cataract.
re: Chat Lobby
- hit the Shift+Tab key to bring up the Impulse menu
- click on the "Chat" option in the Impulse menu
- there you go, pre-game chat, its already there
re: Concede
- an AI in place of a human team-mate screws them just as much (if not more) then being down a man. human opponents will ruthlessly hunt and kill the AI on your team and farm massive amounts of nearly free gold and exp. its probably better to just not have the guy on your team at all.
- Concede will show up as a loss on your record. thats the point. it will discourage rage-quitting so people won't bail on a game to avoid a loss on their record.
re: Variance between factions
- the graphics are a little bit different, but i agree, the differences could be emphasized more.
re: Structural Transfer
- rook is a pusher. he can't pursue DG's and he has alot of trouble retreating if he gets jumped 2on1. Structural Transfer is a key component of his playstyle.
- if you don't like Rook pushing your lane, go confront him. try to interrupt the Structural Transfer.
- i'm not saying that this ability is perfectly balanced, maybe adjustments would be good, maybe they wouldn't. i'm just saying this one hasn't even come close to raising a red flag from me. it doesn't seem off-balanced at all to me.
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