It’s been another crazy week of re-architecting the way multiplayer match-making works to handle the number of users.
Today we are pleased to announce the new update:
Here’s what’s new for this week:
Now, that said, what’s NOT in this update?
And lastly, let’s talk about 5 on 5.
There have been other peer to peer games. But the connectivity complexity is C = D * N*(N-1) where N is the number of players and D is the raw data being exchanged. While Demigod supports 5 on 5 multiplayer in custom, LAN, and single player, I have to tell you, unless you know who you are playing with, you’re asking for trouble if you try to do this with strangers. Even if you manage to find 10 random people to play with online and they all manage to connect to each other, when you get in game, because the game is synced, you’re going to likely have a non-ideal experience.
Let’s work through the formula where let’s assume D = 10.
With a 3 on 3 game, which, according to what I’ve seen in Supreme Commander, is the typical largest game people get into, C = 300. On Battle.net with Starcraft, the max number of players is 8. C = 560. But when you go to 10 players, C = 900, nearly double the complexity of trying to do an 8 player game.
What our work has been these last 2 weeks has been to re-architect the system so that we can bring down that D multiplier. That’s the only part we can control.
When trying to connect players together, each player, based on their internet connection and PC performance has their own threshold of what variable C can reach before things fall apart.
In the beta, we were able to bring our variable D down by adding more servers. And most beta testers had high end connections and PCs so they had relatively high thresholds before variable C had problems.
But clearly, in release, that threshold turned out to be a lot less. The first inkling that our D variable was way too high was that the pirates who were pounding the server that first week were able to overwhelm our servers. To put things in perspective, Impulse typically gets around 300,000 users using it each day and it doesn’t even break a sweat. But a mere 140,000 connections that first week brought Demigod’s online experience to its knees.
We were able to get a reprieve that first week by shuffling users off to a new set of servers to get them away from the warez users. But as the game has continued to sell (and it looks like it’s going to break the 100k milestone shortly).
So the thing we continue to do is try to lower that D variable so that more and more people with marginal systems can get in. There will likely be lots more updates as we find new ways to squeeze it. In the meantime, your best hope is to try not to go nuts with the # of players unless you know them.
We will probably have another small update tomorrow as we continue to refine this.
This was a great update.
You start with patch notes, then lead into talking about how Demigod's P2P system isn't as good as Starcraft's and will take time to surpass Starcraft's P2P system. Which then heads into piracy being the cause of Demigod's ability to compete with Starcraft's 10+ year old system.
I hope something works out but this babble makes me lose faith.
there is a waaaaahbulance emoticon , use it!
I just hope the netcode gets optimized. I can play a 4v4 COH with my connection, but can't play more then 2v2 DG.
Dota is fine 5v5, but its a client/server system where only the host needs to have good upload (although it doesn't really need to be that good - you can host a 5v5 with 768k upstream)
From this perspective, I think that p2p was not a good choice for a game thats has 5v5 games as a main feature unless its netcode is extremely overhead-free. Those typical RTS games with 1v1 and 2v2 can do p2p just fine though.
Yada, yada, yada.
No offense, but Warcraft 3 has been doing 6vs6 without lag for at least 5 years.
Just wondering when we can expect Pantheon matches to be something other than 2v2?
That was fairly obnoxious. Brad and co. are putting in a tremendous amount of work to get things fixed, to be sure, and I laud them for it. But the guy's got a right to be complaining, and if his friend bought Demigod on his recommendation, he kind of owes it to him to be the one passing along updates. I quite like Stardock, and I love Demigod, but I was in a very similar situation. Until the last connectivity fixes, my best friend couldn't connect me, either. For a LOT of players, there was a considerable period of "It'll be fixed real soon!" and it wasn't. I don't blame Stardock that it's taken so long. I'm a QA tester by profession, and my friend is a programmer. We both know estimates slip, and well thought-out plans don't always work. But at the same time, Brad Wardell (Frogboy) was the fellow touting the highly laudable "Gamer's Bill of Rights" a while back. Ever read that? Number two on the list Brad wrote up:
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
For a substantial number of players, code/systems that would allow them to connect were not ready out of the box. I totally praise Brad for the work he and his team (and GPG) have put in since launch. I couldn't ask them to work harder, and wouldn't if I could. But at the end of the day, people paid money for this game, and as long as they're going to be reasonably civil, they've got a right to feel a bit irate that they paid for something that's flat out non-functional for them, and all the effort in the world is only so much good without results. My friend and I are all set now (thanks entirely to the work Stardock's done since launch), so thanks Stardock, truly. But it needs to be born in mind that there are still people out there with a completely legitimate gripe right now, and Brad set the bar high for himself with that Gamer's Bill of Rights.
Best wishes, both to Stardock in their work to get it all resolved, and to those who still can't connect.
At least you get 2v2s.
My last 3 games have been:
1v1 (against another player) which didn't get registered.
3v3 with only me being an actual player.
2v3 where I have 2 AIs and the other team are both human players (altho looking at the stats, one of them isn't even listed as having played).
Basically, it just becomes a game where as soon as u start, u know who has won cos it comes down to who has more AIs on their team (ie the more u have, the more u will lose).
The irony is, it's getting to a point where Stardock journals are counting AGAINST the game.
I used to love the daily (twice daily even) journals from Frogboy.
The problem is that now I think, well, u've had my cash for a month and my play experience gets worse with every patch.
Bit of a problem in a game in which there's no point in playing single player.
Thanks for keeping us updated, and try not to let the trollettes get you down. I am one of those who are having the connectivity issues, but I am adult enough to realize that pissing and moaning about it won't do anyone any good. I doubt that very few, if any of the whiners have the basic smarts to even begin to understand the enourmous complexity of what you are attempting to do.
Know that the overwhelming majority of players understand, to one degree or another, the task you are facing, and support you 100%.
IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove that they are old enough to grow some fuzz on their nutsack.
My situation may be a bit unique, and there is the very real possibility that it may never be fixed. Even in that circumstance, I just want you to know that I had an incredibly fun run through the beta, and don't in any way feel cheated or misled. My respect for you has only grown through these difficult times, and I remain a strong supporter. Good luck, and in any case, I'll see you in the world of Elemental.
You're right. It doesn't make sense and I lost faith 6 updates ago. This continued reassurance to "fix" problems is unnacceptable. GPG simply did not release a complete product and have been using our $40 to finish a title that should have performed properly out of the box--not to mention a full month after release. And no, I do not want a refund--I want the finished product that is advertised on the box. This kind of nonsense needs to be reported to the better business bureau or something. Simply offering a refund to people that are not satisfied is quite the cop out, especially this late after release.
Hopefully Stardock learned something and does not have to deal with lackluster developers like this in the future.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong--I loved GPG's work with Dungeon Siege and SupCom--but none of those issues come close to the clusterf*%& of problems in Demigod. Quite simply, this release is an embarressment and is a perfect example of how developers are forced to release unfinished products due to deadlines/lack of funds. I'm assuming it was the latter, and to top it off they have the audacity to use the funds from consumers who bought the broken product to attempt to finish it. People don't buy a lawnmower (or anything, really) expecting it to work properly 6 months later.
IMHO, the only people that should be allowed to post on the forums are those who can prove they will entertain me in some fashion. I'll show you my fuzz if you show me something that makes me chuckle. One of us will get to stay. Really though, fuzz on the nutsack. You are clearly all growed up. And assuming anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion is doing so out of ignorance? WE BETTER JUST SHUT THOSE FUCKERS UP. I know I haven't acquitted myself in a particularly mature fashion either, but damn dude. Fuzz on the nutsack? Really!?
In any case, I've been enthusiastically supporting and urging my buddy to hop on the community site and check out these updates. I constantly explained how hard these guys are working. And ever since that first time, a few weeks ago, I've been saying "It's coming, man. This time, FOR SURE!"But you know what? It didn't. It hasn't. It doesn't even look like it will in any timely fashion at this point. And at this point, my reassurances have become comedic. And i'm sick of it. If the hostility of my post puts you off from getting the point, good. I'm glad. Now you can scroll up and read Locklear93's more eloquent, less enflamed, astoundingly accurate take on why I'm getting uppity.
WTF? Are you on their payroll? You don't feel cheated or misled paying $40 to participate in what is essentially a beta release? I wish I had your patience--or at least wish I didn't study business in college.
i loled , think a lot of us here who post are older then you think.
so your saying the older you get the more you let people sell you unfinished items ?
the older im getting the more im going back with my stake when its not done properly ,people have the right to be pissed when its in this state.
Best post in this thread. I wrote a civil but firm email to Stardock requesting a refund. They didn't reply, which was okay since I've decided to stay with DG for now.
But despite Brad's explanations of the situation, I simply cannot understand how this is a "new" problem in the gaming world. Trying to make a melee-heavy multiplayer game isn't something new, is it? It doesn't seem like the revolutionary part of DG is the tehcnology behind it at all...
Also, why wasn't some sort of "free weekend" stress test done during beta? Wouldn't that have invited not only more people onto the servers, but also people with inferior connections and specs?
I hate to add to the complaints here, but another thing which gets me is the paucity of content upon release. It's just a shame that all this time being wasted on fixing the game is not being devoted towards expanding the number of maps, making the items more interesting, working on new DGs, etc.
This was a great update. I've not really had trouble getting into games in the past but the speed in which games are getting going now it looks like you guys got it.
The older you get, the less fanboy you become cos that money you spent, you worked hard for.
Not only that, you've experienced so many games that are simply unfinished at launch (SupCom was a steaming pile that basically memory leaked itself to oblivion at first and GPGnet... well.. less said about that the better) or didn't deliver what it promised (Aoc, WAR) that you get tired of putting up with it.
You also get tired of people saying, yeah, it's really difficult so give them a break.
I'm sorry but how many games have we seen where it totally falls over when it comes to multiplayer cos 'it worked in beta but there were loads more people at launch'?
Thnx for the new patch... oww I forgot... Yeah, since you implemented those FIXES we've been getting NAT FACILITATOR / endless queues / random dc's problems...
tyvm for screwing the game experience once again.
so...
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/347031
...
do i get an "I told you so" award now?
in any case, thanks for the update. keep plugging away at it.
Why didn't starduck license GameSpy or some proven system? Wish I was playing Red Alert over Kali with a full house...at least that worked back in '96.
we could try giving you an "I told you so" achievement, but they still not working... youll have to wait
I'm probably just not getting something, but... in many fps games there can be up to 32 players. 32*31=992, 10*9=90. So... is the D value in Demigod more than 10 times greater than you'd find in any fps? Because otherwise I don't see how this is such a huge problem...
*Note: Just curiosity here, I know you guys work hard.
FPS games use a client/server model. So there is just 1 connection for each client to the server, and the server would have up to 32 connections.
Games for windows live imo
I have to disagree with the statement that 3v3 is the max typical SupCom game. I have played hundreds of custom games of SupCom, and at least half of those have been 4v4. In the first couple months of SupCom's life, there were problems with desyncs, etc. In the last year, it has worked pretty well. So it is achievable, even with several thousand units in play, which is typical SupCom.
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