First off - I do well in the majority of my games so this is not a QQ post. In fact this is a post asking them to make the game more balanced and "fair" for the ppl who don't or the ppl who pick heros who are unable to counter others early on.
MONEY is a huge problem in this game. If you manage to get a few early kills you get a HUGE buff and advantage over the other team. In fact if you got a few early kills you are probably slightly better or have a better hero (hero combo) than the other team...
There is a reason dota is the way it is and has been so popular for so long. If you get dominated by an enemy player (or group of players) You can go off and farm gold elsewhere... switching lanes and killing creeps. This allows you to get the items you need to possibly counter them.
Demigod however has a slow static income that basically screws anyone who isn't able to get those hero kills early on (or ever after a while). The gold gained from killing the creeps is next to nothing. You gain 1000+ from hero kills easy which is 100's of creep kills.
Nerf hero kill gold, or allow a game setting for it. 200-300 gold for a hero kill should be balanced. Getting 1000+ is like getting a few item every 2-3 kills. This is another reason why the AI screws ppl in so many matches.... Since killing them yeilds do much gold.
You're right that demigod kills are worth too much money. They should be about half, but with some bonuses added for killing people that have a killing streak, or killing someone who killed you(bonus for getting revenge)
I think 300-1000 gold, depending on levels, would be good.. But exceeding that with killing people on streaks or getting revenge.
Getting to level 6 when others are 3 or 4 is a massive advantage, and can sometimes just be attributed to luck.. Of course if you win early you should carry momentum, but it seems a bit ridiculous.
You are right how it sucks how you can't really farm to catch up. HAve you tried playing the game on "fast spawn rate"? It plays much better IMO because not only are creeps more deadly, since there is more, but farming them yeilds both more xp and gold since there is more to kill.
There should be a game setting to adjust this, sure. But the NORMAL level should be faster spawns, or higher gold for archer&minotaur kills(I'd prefer there just be more of them. IMO the game plays good at fast spawn rate if only kill bounty was reduced) and the lesser bounty because normal settings is what tournaments and pantheon are on.
So bounty should be reduced, with a "high" bounty option to make bounties what they are now.
There is another thread on this so hopefully they'll adjust it.
In phase1 beta you only got like 100-600 gold for kills or something, and imo it played better.. but more often sort of stale mated. 300-1000 would be good for it being based off level, with additional bonuses like I described.
They will start working on balancing the game after they fix the connectivity issue, so bear with it for now. And yes killing Demigods does give to much. The gold for assist is also to much.
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DOUBLE SMITE..................
Opps double post lol...and yes he's right (twice) bear with it for now....
It should work like in the board game risk... escalating rewards.
eg: 1st demi-god kill is 300, next is 400 etc...
This also makes dying 1st desirable if you know your enemy cannot escape.
That's an interesting idea too.
They need more maps with definative lanes, more clutter on the maps, improved walk meshes and pathfinding on all the maps, etc... If you use decent team work you can dominate in this game easy enough...
Suppose a reduce in the ramping up of DG bounty could work too.
QQ POST
Heres the thing: Don't die. If you can't farm without them going on the aggressive, then back off and don't be stupid. You can't hold the game accountable for incompetence. If it's your teammates, get some friends or wait like I am for the upcoming team pantheon. In most games I play where there are decent players, first bloods won't happen for a long time, and farming first items takes a while. So yeah, inpetitude isn't the games faults. Its your teams fault.
Yeah, but the better team always wins regardless. If you're outfarmed and getting pushed into other lanes, the SMART thing the other team would do is come and gank you and force you out of any lanes. Demigod obviously lacks the gigantic distance between 'lanes,' let alone distinguishable lanes, but it's pretty straightforward. Dota does NOT work like that however. Any team that lets you fam in other lanes sucks, and if you come back it's a matter of their failure, not your superiority.
200 gold? Seriously? What am I going to buy with 200 gold? A potion? Oh that's right. They cost 250!. That's a terrible idea. The only way to farm up decent mid-gear is making gold.
I'm going to go right ahead and label this a QQ post. If you can't avoid getting into suicidal situations, it's your fault, not the games fault. If you feed a few kills and they get a level/gear advantage over you, then you fucked up early game. You can try and come back, and it can be done, but overall: TERRIBLE idea.
I feel that early kills in dota are MUCH easier than in demigod, people have plenty of options to avoid becoming meat so early in the game, and frankly I feel anyone that gives away first blood in the first few minutes of the game, deserves to lose...
That said, I don't disagree about some nerf to the amount of gold per kill... when you have characters like unclean beast who specialise in quick gank hero killing, and then others like rook who will have a tendency to survive longer and kill more creep, it isn't particularly balanced to say that one will regularly get over 1000+ gold for doing their job, whilst the other gets... a lot less
To say that this makes the game FLAWED, is a little extreme though... as in my opinion it encourages people not to die... play defensively until their character is able to manage, rather than standing like a retard in the middle of the lane while they get beaten to death by someone they should not be fighting
Everyone shut up about DOTA!! This is Demigod....not DOTA!!! I don't care if it is slightly inspired by DOTA, it's not it. Thanks:)
You know why dota is popular? Because of how balanced it is. Regardless of how much you dislike comparing dota to demigod, they're very similar. Infact, demigod is based off of dota. There are some features in dota that are required to maintain balance, but don't necessarily make it a replication of the same exact game. Stubbornly refusing these ideas for the sake of being different at the expense of balance and better gameplay, is shear stupidity.
Not that this idea is a good one because it tries to compare itself from dota, but to any argument in general that shrugs off implementing features from dota (and this is not one of them).
I like the current system because I think creeping is dumb and why I didn't bother taking Warcraft 3 seriously as an RTS. When I play these games I play to go up against a human opponant, a living breathing thinking person who poses a real challenge and creates unique situations for me to deal with every game.
What is being proposed here is that instead of being forced to deal with these situations you should have a 'back-up' option of going and creeping unopposed so you can catch up!
That doesn't make for better 'balance and gameplay.' Forcing the players to think and do better, not letting themselves die, or maybe even going so far as to get a kill or two for themselves through smarter play is creating better gameplay.
Not dying does not increase your kills (individually), so this point is kind of moot. It makes sense if you look at a whole team, but the DGs that are built for anything other than killing are at a huge monetary disadvantage, while the assassins are at an advantage. That IS the game design's fault.
The point (that you again missed) is that there is more than one viable way to fight in dota. In DG the only good way to play is to focus solo on killing other demis.
I agree the 200-300 range is a bit small. 1500 is too high.
Problem is, if you can't avoid losing towers, or can't kill creeps, that's also your fault, and you should be at a disadvantage because you fucked up too. The game design will not punish that, however, since it only cares about assassinating DGs.
So, while I commend your stalwart defense of this game as the most perfectly balanced system ever devised by anyone ever, I think maybe you should take a less biased view at it, and you might see some small changes could enhance the game. Afterall, I'm sure the devs will. And when they make changes, I have a feeling you will be unwaveringly supportive as well.
...erhm, he never said the game was balanced yet...
I don't care how much this game is similar to DotA. I've played a lot of DotA and I'm sick of it. If this game goes DotA-style ex. with the terrible deny'ing of creeps, I'll sue someone...anyone! Too many heroes, the weirdest item-upgrade system I've ever seen (who combines swords, boots and a hat into a weapon?) and I must admit I'm getting pretty fed up with the graphics. WC3 is fine for tower defenses, but for waging online war...hmmmm, not so much anymore.
Give the guys more than a week to perfect the game. After all, it took 6 years to get DotA to where it is today
It also decreases their kill count as well. You can't just ignorantly run into battle with the mindset of, 'LOL IM GUNNA CHASE AND SUICIDE KILL,' and then complain when they get fed from this downie sort of play. The fact is, the OP is complaining about other teams getting fed. Not dying solves his problem. If you can't out wait a stale mate and play intelligently and try to feed off mistakes and play opportunity based, and instead try to force opportunities that end up killing yourself and winning them the game, is not a fault of the game.
Seriously? Have you seen Erebus? Have you seen queen? Have you seen Sedna? Have you seen OAK?! I guess you've never even seen the general classes in action. First of all, they ARE built for killing. Their nuke attacks aren't AS strong as some of the nuke skills of the assassins, but they're there, and they have a-LOT of support skills, not to mention their minions. You can very easily play a general class as an assassin to counter another assassin. They're very flexible like that.
I'm going to straight up assume you've never seen a good general player yet. Watch the ESL 2v2 cup, you'll learn a little on just how ridiculously well played generals are. (I'm hoping theres some decent competition from there, at the very least)
Well, I can't even argue that the balance is 100% perfect, but neither can you. For one, as I pointed out, you've never played anyone half-decent yet. Second, it's only the second week past release, with the first major tournament coming even before the team pantheon. Theres no way to gauge the balance so soon when you of all people haven't even begun to comprehend what every demigod is capable of. I'm learning every day, you should be open-minded as well.
Regardless though, I wasn't implying the game was unbalanced because of classes. I'm implying it's not imbalanced if one team sucks and the other doesn't. Both teams began with equal gold, equal resources, and the exact same opportunity to shine. If one team stumbles and fucks everything up, it is not a fault of the game.
No, the point I was making was that if you're playing against a good team and your team sucks, it's not as easy as switching it up. Whoever I quoted tried to make a point that in dota, theres an alternative when you're out-skilled, which is farming in other lanes. My point was, that if the difference in skill level maintains, and the opposing team is smart, theres pretty much no way you can win, because a good team will hunt you down and abuse their advantage in gold/levels. This happens when you move to empty lanes, just to find three of them in the forest waiting. That's how the game is played. When the teams are even in skill however, it doesn't ALWAYS work this way...becuase they're even in skill. But generally, theres no real way to just out-muscle a team that literally has you beat in every aspect, including skill, and has already won the early/mid game. Theres no secret technique that turns around a game other than good micro-management, team work, and knowledge of your hero.
However, on your completely off point, it is pretty true. I'm not going to agree that there isn't alternatives to farming in different lanes like in dota, more or less that the creeps give VERY little gold in comparison to kills. I wouldn't say nerf kills for gold, more or less buff the gold that the low level creeps give. The game is already slow as it is, there really is no need to slow down the game any more by reducing income, which in turn slowls players down from getting the items that allows them to win games faster. Later though, mid-late game, the massive waves of creeps give substantial amounts of gold, and a good team can easily abuse the other teams creep advantage to literally out-farm them in gold and push a game back.
Still though, early game, the gold income is VERY slow. That still doesn't justify getting impatient and getting yourself killed.
Erebus and Oak are almost assasins with the option to have minions. QoT apparently has ways to kill DGs effectively, beyond mulching her shamblers and bramble shielding herself until the opponent gets tired .
EDIT: I was mistaken; Sedna is apparently the DG in Pantheon that has the lower favor points to win ratio. I never play QoT or Sedna, so I really am unfamiliar with them, but if this is an indication of anything, Sedna is the one that is having trouble, as apparently many players are using her primarily as healing and support rather than damage.
I suppose this isn't suprising; somehow she should get credit for her support?
But since this is really only the case for one DG out of the four generals, so this is more of a balance issue for QoT Sedna than anything else.
..Later though, mid-late game, the massive waves of creeps give substantial amounts of gold, and a good team can easily abuse the other teams creep advantage to literally out-farm them in gold and push a game back.
I agree with you on both points here. A little early game acceleration would certainly help move things along. And as for the second point, all I will say is that I hate to hear that "Light priests have joined the battle!!!" when I'm on light's side, we're all still level 5, and we are no where near getting catapultasauri. I'm still a n00b, but I at least have learned that getting priests early in the game does nothing more than give the opposition a boost in gold farming.
Have you tried a 2v2 against Sedna (Nightmare)? At level 20 she's practically immortal. Me (Unclean beast, fast attack, mega damage and life steal) and my friend (frost-mage, crowd control and stun) tried pounding her down while she was alone. It just wasn't happening! We tried killing her healers first, then DPSing her. No go, she just spawned them faster than they went down. She's HORRIBLE! I'm not entirely sure how the AI does this. I sure as hell can't make her invincible like that.
Does the AI have access to all favor items? What's happening there? Does anyone know?
I'm pretty sure nightmare gets more gold or something.
That's my point, only they aren't flexible.
You can play a general class as an assassin and do great. You cannot play them as a general and do great. Part of this is because generals played as generals don't get as many kills as other players, and so are at a disadvantage.
The problem currently is, as I have mentioned in my other thread, the game dynamic is very unstable.
The reason is that, there is a runaway spiral caused by the slightly winning team getting more and more money for better equipment, citadel upgrades and then come back to kill more of the other team and in turn get even more money. Even assuming both team play equally good, a slight shift in balance can easily make the dynamic fall into a negative spiral.
The same goes with experience and level uping. It becomes a harder and harder uphill battle for the losing team to win.
A Demigod with a much higher level should get much less monetary reward when killing a low level demigod.
Ever seen QoT? One of the most difficult to kill generals. She won't rack up kills, but she will push your base down your throat until your citadel is hanging out of your ass. She racks up minions, absorbs a torrent of punishment, and heal bombs herself. I just lost an ESL match with the mindset of nuking and out-killing the other team. We couldn't come close without feeding, and were pushed off the map. Almost literally.
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