Did you hear about this one? This doesn't help quell the rumors that Obama is acting like the AC. Recently he told the Turks that America is not a Christian Nation. So is he trying to prove it? This was on Fox News this morning.
Of course you do. Such is the thinking of religious zealots. You can deny his contributions to the founding of this nation all you want but it doesn't change the facts. He wrote our declaration of independence and was an important figure throughout the founding of our nation. Of course he didn't sign it, he was out of the country, that doesn't mean that he didn't contribute to it. He was a well respected person in his day and contributed greatly to the founding of this nation, including the constitution. Just read up on the letters between himself and Madison and you might get some idea of his involvement in the drafting of our foundation.
I know many Christian zealots dislike Jefferson because he was basically a deist instead of a devout Christian, but that's your problem and not related to reality.His contributions to the founding of our nation are a matter of fact and no measure of distraction can take away from that. As a student of history I know full well where he was, and when.
I don't really consider myself a religious zealot Mason. I guess that depends on your definition. What makes me one? The fact that I believe our country was founded on Christian principles? The fact that I believe in God period? Just because I'm a Christian? I mean what?
First you're assuming I dislike Jefferson. Why would I? Because he's a deist? Nope. In fact I can take Jefferson's writings and compared to today he looks like a bible thumper.
Second, I'm very familiar with reality. You still haven't proven your case Mason. Going after me instead isn't helping you out here.
Well I already gave you Post #22 showing how Madison was keeping him posted. I'm sure Jefferson was very interested but what I'm saying is he really had nothing to do with this and you still haven't proven it otherwise. Many don't realize this and think Jefferson's separation of church and state is somewhere in the Constitution because he wrote it himself.
I'm not disputing his contributions to our country. So don't get off the track. We are speaking about the Constitution and the fact that not only was Jefferson not even in our country during the writing of it or the signing of it we are quick to take his little 8 worded sentence (in a letter) about separation of church and state changing many of our laws as a result and totally misinterpreting what the Founding Father's intended, especially those who helped write the Constitution and put their signatory to it.
Alright.
There's a difference between a Christian nation and government.
Besides, in my opinion, the point isn't so much that those living in the States weren't Theist or Deist, but that the founders, the people that wrote our founding documents, and established our nation - put nothing, absolutely nothing, stating that our nation was to be Christian, or was Christian - in the sense of the government. These were Deist and even Theists who did this.
~Alderic
those who make claims such as this one by kfc prefer to ignore, rather than explain, how and/or why the authors and ratifiers of our constitution somehow managed to avoid using the word "god" in that document.
Actually, if I remember correctly, there was a reference or two of the word God; however, it is in their implying and use of words that they suggest a God other than the Christian God, per se. I made the case in another thread, I believe it was here.
Edit:
Let me rephrase that, there was the use of the word God. To say reference sounds like I'm saying they put: (See: God) - in the founding documents. That would be sort of funny though.
in fact, the words "god" and "jesus" do not appear in the consitution.
in her article "our godless constitution" published in 2/21/05 edition of "The Nation" author brooke allen discusses this very topic:
"Our nation was founded not on Christian principles but on Enlightenment ones. God only entered the picture as a very minor player, and Jesus Christ was conspicuously absent.
Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004].In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans--the fundamentalists of their day--would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time.""
My bad Kingbee, I was reading Constitution, and thinking Declaration of Independence. I really must be tired today.
Here we go again. JEFFERSON HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONSTITUTION. Yets he's the only one we talk about when we mention our FF being Deists (along with Franklin) or when we talk about Separation of Church & State.
Did you notice Mason never came back with anything when I asked to back up his claim? Jefferson didn't write the constitution. He did not EVEN SIGN IT. He was in France. There was no email. No telephone. No pony express.
To say the Founding Fathers were not relgious men is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. Read their writings they left behind. Thank goodness we have such a library of their works to go back and read. I'm afraid you're a product of revisionist history.
Some of them were ministers for crying out loud.
One founded the American Bible Society (would an atheist start this?)
In 1790 one of them founded the first American Sunday School Union (an atheist founding a Sunday School?)
The American Bible Tract Society was started by a Founding Father (I guess he was atheistic as well?)
Go back and read the records of the first Congress. It was in 1774 in Philadelphia. It opened up in prayer (as it is still done today) but how many atheists are willing to pray FOR THREE HOURS? Also John Adams wrote that they studied 4 chapters of the bible that day. He addressed his fellow founding fathers begging them to read Psalm 135 which helped them beat the British. And they weren't religious men? Are you kidding me?
A painting was done to depict this first prayer in the Senate because it was so awesome.
You know what's funny? In the first 150 years of our Fedeal Court System the "Separation of Church & State" was mentioned in less than a dozen court cases. In the last 50 years it's been used 650 times. Hmmmm what changed?
We have forgotten our history.
1. Wrong, Jefferson did have something to do with the Constitution. See here:
"Although Thomas Jefferson was in France serving as United States minister when the Federal Constitution was written in 1787, he was able to influence the development of the federal government through his correspondence. Later his actions as the first secretary of state, vice president, leader of the first political opposition party, and third president of the United States were crucial in shaping the look of the nation's capital and defining the powers of the Constitution and the nature of the emerging republic."
2. Actually there were multiple others who were Deist, not just Franklin or Jefferson. As for the rest, I stand somewhat correct; there's a book (The Signers of the Constitution by Robert G. Ferris and James H. Charleston. ) that talks about them. Some were in fact of a faith, but there is no disputing of their intentions.
3. KFC, slow down and take a breath, alright? I doub it's being claimed that they were a bunch of Atheists, to the contrary. I personally am trying to say that - while the were indeed religious - the bulk, so far as i know, were Deist. That doesn't equat with Atheism. It's pretty much the antithesis of atheism, along with theism. My claim is also that, even if the founding fathers were religious - their words, followed by their actions (cause actions speak louder than words, right?) - show that they intended a secular government. Not necessarily a secular nation, but a government that was not in favor of any particular religion, so that there was no chance of persecution. It seems reasonable considering many people fled to the colonies/new world because of religious persecution. (Puritans, some Mennonites, Jews, etc.)
P.S. I've a joke to pass along, and be it known it's from a Jewish friend. The joke goes:
What is a Jews favorite martial arts? "Jew"-Jitsu
where's the link? Where's the footnotes?
There's a book out there trying to debunk the Christians' assertions (like what I've been saying). I can't remember which book.....but it's filled with all sorts of contrary statements to support the liberals/atheists etc view that we were not founded on Christian principles. Anyhow at the end of the book there were no footnotes only an explanation that footnotes weren't really needed because everyone already knew the history behind the statements made in the book.
Amazing.
Here's some quotes you might be interested in from the Deist Jefferson:
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ"
"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others"
"The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses"
"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man"
Here's a link that has a whole bunch more quotes from our founding "atheistic" fathers with footnotes attached.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755
KFC, see this:
Deistic, not Atheistic. Do I have to show you the definitions?
That is because we were founded on Enlightenment principles, period. Plain and simple, do not pass go. Enlightenment principles. Now, it is matter of record/common knowledge that there is some basis in Enlightenment principles/ideals, that come from Deism.
Here
From the same source:
While president, Jefferson's principles were tested in many ways. For example, in order to purchase the Louisiana Territory from France he was willing to expand his narrow interpretation of the Constitution. But Jefferson stood firm in ending the importation of slaves and maintaining his view of the separation of church and state. In the end, Jefferson completed two full and eventful terms as president. He also paved the way for James Madison and James Monroe, his political protégés, to succeed him in the presidency.
Also, founding fathers who were Deist:
Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. James Madison, John Adams, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine
if our constitution vaporized tomorrow and you were selected to write its replacement, what is the likelihood your version would mention neither god nor jesus?
after all, you consider yourself a religious person as well as a christian and one who believes this to be a christian nation, no?
Did Thomas Paine sign the Constitution? Hmmmm how many of your list made the cut?
Ok....so you gave me this very short list and not all signed the Constitution. Here's a listing of the signers of the Constitution:
I would leave it exactly as written. Nothing wrong with it as is. The problem isn't with with Constitution, it's with the interpretation of it by the Judical Tyranny.
Thomas Paine is widely considered the conscious/heart of the revolution, while Washington was the might/strength. He is considered a founding father, because mind you, founding father's does not mean Constitution only.
Addendum, since you claim you understand history better than I, and yet you missed out on Paine. Here:
Thomas Paine has a claim to the title The Father of the American Revolution because of Common Sense, the pro-independence monograph pamphlet he anonymously published on January 10, 1776; it quickly spread among the literate, and, in three months, 100,000 copies sold throughout the American British colonies (with only two million free inhabitants), making it a best-selling work in eighteenth-century America.[11] Paine's original title for the pamphlet was Plain Truth; Paine's friend, pro-independence advocate Benjamin Rush, suggested Common Sense instead.
The other one who has claim so far as i can remember, is Sam Adams
Source
Other sources (for the above):
Btw, my points where never that they were not religious, at leas that is not what I meant to get across. My point was to make known that while they may have been religious, their intentions/actions speak differently. They did not make a religious state, or governement.
In fact, tell me KFC. If our nation was intended to be a Christian nation/government, then tell me why our founding fathers did not make it that way? Why did they set up what they did, instead of, say a Christian Theocracy?
Kudos and karma if you answer it logically/factually, lol.
not nearly the problem created by non-judicial (non-judiciious too, for that matter) persons of the christian persuasion who jump on obama for stating the logical product of this syllogism:
a. a nation proclaiming itself to be a christian nation (like the vatican, the former monarchies of spain and portugal, etc.) does so by force of law.
b the united states is a nation of laws all of which must conform to our constitution.
c. there is no mention of god or jesus in our constitution.
ergo: the usa is not a christian nation.
no interprestation necessary except by those who endlessly insist on defining this nation as the dominionist tyranny of their fantasies.
I've made no mention of this often misinterpreted sentence at all so have no idea why you would bring it up here. He was obviously rererring to the influence of official goverment religion, and not the reverse as has been espoused over the past several deacdes. On this point we agree.
That because they're idiots who have never read it and don't actually know anything about it
Put aside your smugness, I've been offline for several days. Hardly an appropriate attribute for a so-called Christian.
I know (as do many) why so many zealots try to discredit Jefferson's contributons to our contitution, and because of the same lines in a letter that appear nowhere in the actual document. Get over it, it didn't mean what so many claim it to mean, so desn't have the force of law, and has been somehow incorporated into modern interpretation (even in the Supreme Court) where it wasn't intended. Both sides of the issue are dead wrong.
Poor grammar aside, I agree with you hear, they certainly were.
Misused would be more accurate. It is NOT a fact of law, constitution, or anything else.
Claiming that Jefferson had NOTHING to do with the writing of our constitution is simply dishonst and downright wrong. It's historically inaccurate and in every way simply, well, wrong. Not being a signatory on the document hardly means he wasn't an influence. Just he didn't agree with your religious views or has been misintrepreted over the years is hardly a reason to discredit the man's accomplishments.
This nation was not founded as a theocracy. It was not founded as a Christian nation, nor was it founded as any other religious nation. That was an intentional act of the founders and is spelled out in the constitution. Personally, I thank G-D it isn't a theocracy.
I have no idea why the above quotes, responses aren't formatted correctely.
well that's good. I'm not saying you did make mention. I just brought it up for reinforcement I guess.
there you go with the whole zealot thing again. I noticed you didn't answer my questions (or is that smugness to bring it up again?) as to your definition of zealot and why you think I would be one.
Well I don't agree both sides are dead wrong. I believe that many don't even know that "separation of church and state" is NOT even in the Constitution. Heck, most don't even know that Jefferson was NOT a participant in the signing and writing of it. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying because we need to let people know what the truth is....not some revisionist historical rumors that fly all over the place. I've been up against this whole "separation of church and state" many times. It's been used as a "force of law" way too many times when it never should have been.
now you keep saying this but yet....once again.....bring nothing to the table Mason. Show me something!! Not somebody's opinion which is all I've gotten so far. He had NOTHING to do with the writing or signing of the Constitution. Think about it. He was in France. No email. No papers. No Post Office. No pony express. Everything went by ship.......how many months? How long did it take to write the Constitution? Yes, Madison kept him informed as best he could....via ship.
But yet.....separation of church and state (a phrase of Jefferson's) seems to take center stage these days when we talk about the Constitution. Daily I'm hearing reports of some kids who can't have a bible club after school because of "separation of church and state" when in fact, the bible was read in every classroom for years and years and years.....all the way up to my own grandmother and mother. Or a cross has to be taken down somewhere that had been there for decades because one atheist complained. Happens all the time.....under "separation of church and state."
And by now you should know that I've said this as well.....many times. Again.....I've never claimed anything different.
I agree. Man would ruin it for sure! Surprised?
it happens only to the best of us....
Thanks, I was worried nobody would catch that bit of humor. Glad somebody did.
nice to see ya ms wahine..been a long, long time.
Hiya KB! I've missed you! Did you know I have 4 spawn now?
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