I know that the mazara missle barrage is held in high regard but is the desolators missle swarm as good or worse. idk about the damages but level 3 is prob as good as the missle barrage. the missle barrage costs 150 antimater and has along cooldown compared to the missle barrage. both of these have changed battles for me and i am wondering which is better.
what is ur opinion on the better missle attack and why.
That's actually another point I was going to make the Advent had Cleansing Briliance plus Malice which wasn't even as good as the current missile barrage. Not only that, but it was easier to interrupt with two ships required to use it. The nerf that they made to stop it was a target limit which has been suggested and seems to make sense.
Furthermore as the fact that missile barrage is easily countered, the point is it has to be countered or else. No other faction(or ship for that matter) has something that absolutely needs to be countered or you lose the game. Nobody else is punished so harshly for ignoring one factor.
You took the words out of my mouth. Instead of nerfing the most powerful ability, they nerfed lesser power. How that make sense?
Also please people don't pretend that Desolator is in the same league as Marza.
i wasnt saying that it was, i was just wondering how their abilites compared in the views of other people
eh, i'll say it again, ignoring the Missile Barrage issue (which should really be dealt with independently since its so egregious) the two ships actually ARE in the same league.
the Desolator is a very capable ship and i use it frequently. fastest planet killer in the game if you spec Assault and Bombard Platform. phase missile swarm is one of the best damage abilities in the game. the regular gunnery on the Desolator is pretty good too, respectable anyway.
the Marza is also very good just on its own merits, not even counting Missile Barrage. Raze Planet is a great ability and the regular guns damage on the Marza is probably the highest in the game in almost every situation (since most fights are primarily frontal arc).
i mean, if you were to compare a level 5 Marza with a level 5 Desolator they'd be comparable depending on how you specced them. Phase Missile Swarm more than makes up the difference in regular gun damage if you wanted to spec for anti-frigate abilities. the Marza is always going to have a bit of an edge against other cap ships though, and even moreso if you took Radiation Bomb.
I would still pick Marza over Desolator at level 5. Marza can do a lot of damage with incendiary shells and radiation bombs.
However I think Advent and Vasari has better choice in cap ships. For example Advent can choose just about any ship as second ship after Progenitor. Their ships works very well together. Therefore there is more reason for Marza to be dominating. For Vasari I usually go with Jar, Skirantra, Kortul; only build Desolator when I want a fourth ship.
tec it is usually maz, dunov,& kol
maz, fleet clearer
dunov, support
kol, flyswatter
Missile Barrage has simply too much destructive potential, WAAAY more then any other cap ship ability in the game.I suggest that Missile Barrage should have a channeling time and duration a quarter of what they are now, but it should do half as much damage. The cooldown time should also be 25% shorter. This way, Missile Barrage will be harder to counter and more efficient, but less powerful.
No-one responded the first time I posted this suggestion. Well, what do you think? its not exactly a nerf, its more a redisigning of the ability.
Missile barrage is highly comparable to last resort. The only difference is the Marza is a mobile unit, and doesn't kill itself using it. It can SORT of be countered, but you'd better be on your toes lest that one shot gets through and wipes you out!
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down...
Yes, MB is powerful. But it's not the 'lone slayer of fleets, stalking the map at will, snuffing out the hopes and dreams of millions, against whom resistance useless' people are making it out to be.. Over-powered ? I don't think so.. for a few reasons.
First, it can be interrupted. It's not instant damage. It takes a while to do 'all that damage'. You can drain anti-matter, use an ability.. or <shock!> RETREAT YOUR SHIPS FOR 20 SECONDS ! The Marza doesn't move when using this ability. Yes it can kills hundreds of frigates ( the most nimble ships except scouts ), but they can also run the fastest.
Second, cruisers are not killed with MB. Hurt, yes. Not killed. You can retreat and repair them. Same for caps, but even more so. So, yeah, all your LRf's are toast if a Marza gets close. Not en entire fleet.
Third, the Marza is a game changer, but it works both ways. If a TEC players gets a Marza to lvl 6, it took a lot of work. Work that can be erased with a bomber swarm. Any idiot that COUNTS on the use of a single ability to win the game isn't any different than the idiot that spams LRF's, LC's, or HC's. So, if it's GG when TEC gets a lvl 6 Marza, does it work the other way when it goes 'boom' ?
Every race has some ability thats OP'd.. Want to talk total BS ? How about the Vasari ? With phase stabilizers they can concentrate their entire frickin fleet and have it ONE jump from ANYWHERE ! Add in a Kostura cannon, and they can bypass 100 choke points, my entire fleet and attack my homeworld in ONE jump ! Supply lines ? WTF is that to Vasari ? One planet ( or two ! ) with four or five frigate factories and they have 'insta-fleet' anywhere on the map. Advent ? Big deal if they loose a level 10 cap with all those synergistic abilities, they get an automatic 'do over' with the ressurection ability. It's worse than Jason in the Friday the 13th movies.. they just don't stay dead. Granted, these things ain't free, and they take some work, but so does getting a Marza to lvl 6 and keeping it alive.
It's a game changer. Dangerous, yes. Knife's Edge, I believe it was described as.. When I play, I damn sure keep an eye an a lvl 6+ enemy Marza. You have LOTS of options to counter it : AM drain, dis-abling abilities, tactics, retreating, kiting around the gravity well, burying it under a wave of bombers.. In ONE tactical situation ( the middle of a pack of frigates ), IF it has the AM, and IF it survives to get there, IF your opponent can't dis-able, IF the enemy fleet is staionary, and IF they don't run away, a Marza is death on a stick. So, if you insist on driving your fleet up next to one, parking it, and not paying attention, then yes, your'e dead. Other times, considerably less so.
A good comparison of a level 6 Marza is that of a queen in chess.
Yes it is very powerful.
Yes it can dominate the game.
Only an idiot would use it solely.
Is sometimes the first unit out of the game.
Do the other races have such a unit?
Yes
Mothership, Egg
This whole discussion reminds me of the lrf in 1.05 and the latest with carriers. My bro tried to win over me with these spams. I brought in counter and kicked his butt. This is the same thing. Some people just can't handle a powerful unit. SO LETS NERF IT TO DEATH! Whatever.
Drifting off into pointless territory: Ressurection is okay, it's not great. Motherships have the ability, and they are typically the first target to die because of shield restore and malice. If it does survive, chances are it's your highest level ship, so you won't be getting too much out of it. Thirdly, losing a high level cap and then getting it back doesn't WIN the game for Advent, it just gives back their odds.
The Vasari superweapon is just that: a superweapon. Superweapons are DESIGNED to be ridiculously good, and breaking empires is the reason they exist. Not OP, and besides it's way off the point.
Marza's missle barrage is definatly a game-buster i've wiped out 58 enemy kanrak assailants with that ability, whilst my own fleet was composed of 12 lrf's 1 marza lvl 6 and 1 akkan lvl 2
i do believe missle barrage should be nerfed, an ability shouldnt be able do to such amounts of damage to all targets within range, even for an ultimate ability either damage should be lowered or a maximum amount of targets picked
Advent battleship's ultimate ability.. wich targets 1 unit (and everything caught in the beam) should do more damage becuase it has limited range and doesnt attack all targets within that radius
you cannot compare missle barrage to the Evacuator, evacuator does high damage to any single unit and lowers armor of a lvl 2 nanite strike can take out any LRF
whilst missle barrage can take out any lrf within range, if not stunned or shields being restored
Oh please. Saying that Missile Barrage doesn't need to be addressed and capped in some way because it can be intereupted makes about as much sense as calling for a nerf of on the Maruarder because "unless I do something to stop it it will kill my ships by shooting at me". Interrupting the ability is essentially just a tactic you can use to SURVIVE and does nothing to to address the fact that the ability can basically do unlimitted total damage to a fleet. Capping Missile Barrages targets at 12, 18, 24 targets (or any other arbitrary numbers) still let's it do thousands and thousands of damage to the enemy fleet and make a huge difference without letting it be a complete game ender if it happens to be fired at the bulk of the enemy fleet in one place. The simple fact that it can currently do unlimitted damage and probably routinely does hundred of thousands of damage is what makes it a problem. Nothing else even comes close to that kind of damage output.
I loved the Malice+Cleansing Brilliance combo before it was rebalanced. Watching a hundred or more enemy ships pop within 10 seconds was fun. It was also clearly unbalanced even if it could be interrupted.
I dislike the term "nerf" as it usually gets thrown around far to freely and inappropriately. Nerf implies that you've made something no longer dangerous. There is a huge difference between correcting something that is out of balance to bring it to a more sensible balance and "nerfing" something so that it no longer has no effect.
Changing Missile Barrage to do a maximum of 21,000 (7 targets) or 48,000 (16 targets) or even 90,000 (30 targets) hardly sounds like it's "nerfed" and no longer dangerous. I bet if I told you that I was going to mod a new ability into the game that could deal even 40,000 damage in one shot most of you would tell me that it was insanely overpowered and unbalanced.
-dolynick
I don't think there is any unit in chess that can be compared to a Marza with MB. Nor do I think Progenitor or Jarrasul can be compared to Marza. You can wipe out a fleet with two level 6 Marza and minimal support. You can't do that with any other cap ships.
Just putting a cap on the targets would nerf the ability because the damage output is very slow (3000 over almost 30 seconds I think). This would then be worse than Desolator's phase missles, which is not even an ultimate ability.
How so? 100 dps to x number of targets for 30 seconds hardly sounds poor to me. Not even x number of extra cap ships are likely to that much dps. Phase missile swarm does 700 (or so) damage shared between 5 targets (if I recall) a shot. That's a far cry from the Missile Barrage.
If the 3000 damage is shared then things are a little different, as it's then 100/x dps for 30 seconds but that doesn't seem to be the case if the ability is wiping out large fleets of frigates with ease as has been reported.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having powerful abilities in the game. But it should be fairly equal across all factions and right now no other faction has an ability that does THAT much raw damage to an entire fleet that quickly.
Just because you might be able to poke the guy with the machine gun in the eye before he riddles you full of holes doesn't mean it's a fair fight. Which is essentially what the "it can be interupted" argument is asserting.
Usually the machine gun guy is usually the first to die because he is the first targeted.
Doesn't mean he doesn't have an overwhelming advantage over your bare hands and poking ability (in the analogy above). Also doesn't mean he can't do serious, unmatched damage before you do manage to put him down.
Besides, the same can be said of any capship, overpowered ability or not. They all tend to commonly get focus fired first so it's kind of irrelevant.
A machine gun is a little inadequate, don't you think? It's more like:
"A nuclear vulcan cannon is balanced because you can snipe the gunner."
it needs to be said again because some of you aren't getting it.
re-balancing doesn't mean nerfing to uselessness. it just means making the game more fair. nobody can refute the overpoweredness of Missile Barrage and still be taken seriously around here. we all know what the truth of the situation is. the only question ought to be what to do and when, not whether to do it or not.
a rebalanced version of Missile Barrage should still be useful. you could easily change this ability in any number of ways and still have a very powerful and desirable ability. target caps seem to be the most popular and reasonable proposal so far. i'll get on board with that idea as well.
Dolynick has made the most compelling argument so far. there's no legitimacy to the argument that says "everything is balanced automatically because Ignite Antimatter exists in the game." come on, would you even take that seriously if someone was trying to argue it to you?
Plenty of things are fatal if you overlook them. Given that MB is the big 'Button of Doom' for TEC, you can rest assured that any lvl 6 Marza will have it. You'd have to be a total gibbering idiot NOT to take it first chance you got ( OK, maybe you could claim a bad mouse that mis-clicked ). How can you overlook that ? Lvl 6+ Marza = MB. Period. Not much surprise. Instantly earns itself an SC swarm, I kite my fleet waiting for the MB or a big 'boom'. Maybe charge it with my HC's, hoping he'll use it, and then bring up the LRF's to finish him off. It's not an sure thing, by any means. It's a big stick, and they get ONE swing.
And not pointless by any means. Every race has something the other two races wish they had. Something that, IMO, unbalances the game to some degree.
Ressurection is just an example. It certainly makes it easier to keep high level caps around, for a faction that depends on it's caps and the synergies they provide. Sure, your first egg is a target, but the second/third/fourth cap is pretty much expendable. You can get it back, and real quick. No big loss. Try telling that to TEC or Vasari. And the Kostura is merely icing on the phase stabilizer cake. The entire ability gives way to much mobility to that faction. They can concentrate the entire fleet in one spot, multiple hops back, and still be there in one jump.
Using CB+Malice as an example has a little credence, but not much. That ability killed a fleet MUCH faster then 20-25 seconds, and killed ships bigger then frigates. Yeah, that needed a nerf, but probably not as bad as it got. RA needed a nerf, it was truly GG if someone got it. MB ? Not really a game ender. Yeah, it wipes frigates, and hurts HC's. But kiting/movement almost totally removes it's threat. Thats not a game ender. Thats tactics. I might as well complain about SC, because I can't drive my cap through 80 bombers or have it charge a group of 50 LRFs. You could ( and have a had a LAN opponent do this ), charge a Marza with an LRF swarm, wait for the predictable MB, run out of the radius, and then return to smoke him in 15 seconds. Sure you'll lose some LRF's but the Marza is going down.
You can counter it numerous ways, least of which is movement. You can avoid it. It's not GG.
Therefore, No nerf.
even worse
nukes have how big of an explosion radius???
back on topic
How long, at the point in the game where u have a lvl 6 maz, does it take to destroy a cap ship?? certianly much less if ur facing a compentant player, esp if they r advent
Well Vasrsi if you take good care of you cap you can very rapidly get to LVL6 and with a good escort of hoski's to get it out of tough spots and armor upgrades it can still be a force to reckon with mid game, of course to much less effect but i have won losing battles before when a well placed missle barrage could tip the scales. Same thing with space egg early game with the armor destroyer thing (i seriously just blanked on the name.) It can kill any cap in 1-1 warfare ANY cap.
What im not sure people are complaining about is; for most people it takes until about mid game to get a cap to lvl6 and at that point you should have proper measures taken to prevent it all you need are some support ships to disable abilities or failing that repair you ships. IF you truely are behind so much that a cap can turn the tide that you might as well ask for a nerf to the winning team to reduce damage.
Im kind of on the border about this. I can't bring myself to one side or the other as there are valid points and examples for both and having seen the good and the bad i am bout in the middle of this
i want some honest opinions. for those of you defending the status quo of the ability, how would you feel about the ability if it was target capped to 16 targets?
meaning, it would deal 150 damage per wave to 16 targets within its radius on each wave. it would automatically acquire new targets if one of its current targets was destroyed, so no waves would be lost.
16*150 = 2400 damage per wave.
20 waves is 48000 damage. the ability channels for 25 seconds so it would be 1920 DPS while channeling.
to put that in perspective, it would require 106 Kodiaks firing simultaneously to output 1920 DPS.
is this an unacceptable level of nerf to you?
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