Even if generals are tweaked to be as essential for a team as assassins ( which they are not, currently ) They will not be as fun. Call me weird, but adding health and mana and shortening cooldown to my allies is just not as satisfying as fireballing a retreating red-health demigod.
And what kind of a general stands beside a portal and just watches a reinforcement wave happily heading for the nearest enemy tower to get slaughtered ?
Powerful auras for generals is one way I suggested to balance generals, allowing them to seriously enhance minions ( all minions, not just idols; and seriously = NOT +50 health ) but is still passive. Control over reinforcements can be a natural way to make them busy. I mean, Rook can think of stun+warp+hammer, other assassins have other combos. General have less to be active about in a battle ( QoT is okay, the rest are not ).
If generals could, for example, order catapultasauri to shell a tower position, with soldiers waiting behind to charge a demigod, and a powerful mana-consuming aura to activate and make them a force to actually threaten the demigod - that could be nice.
Watching your expensive idols feed another demigod's gold and xp with a couple Fire Nova / timely-thrown Mines is not nice.
This would be bad... you couldn't spawn all 3 on respawn. :/
I think the lvl 1-4 idol thing is useless rightnow. Even if level 4 was good, then i wouldn't see the point of buying lvl 2 or lvl3's, just the 1'st and 4's.
That said, I'm not crazy about the idea of getting them free, because you should be able to play Generals without minions. The probablem is that you can only play them one way now(As assassins) instead of both ways.
Siege Archers at lvl 4 definitely do need their damage doubled, though.
To Innociv, PossiblyImpossible and others who think alike : Do you mean that Oak, Sedna and Erebus are good as assassins only vs Unclean Beast, or are they ok vs the others too ?
If the latter, could you describe how that works ? For example, take Sedna vs any of these 3. How would you manage that ?
Would'nt it be better to make citadel upgrades for Generals cheaper? Makes more sense for me, but it might be more work.
I have to agree that boosting the money a general gains would cause imbalance and could be exploited.
But the problem with generals must be resolved. Giving the option to any demigod to buy idols isn't good either, like i read some where posted by someone.
I played and replayed all the generals over and over, when ever i start a game buying the weaker priests i'm able to "hold the line" agains any other assassin and win some money to evolve either in items or in more idols, but as the game progresses the feeling that you don't have enough "punch" to take a well played demigod also grows and the gap gets bigger.
Because you dont have any direct dmg skill or combo good enough to do it. And as a general maybe you shouldnt have. But if you dont have that than there should be another effective way of dealing dmg.
I tried to buy War Totem at start and every other item in game that gives +damage to the minions, and even with morale and everything else they just dont do enough dmg, at least not as much as an assassin demigod punching your face. Spirits do nice dmg, but the target must stand still.
Since generals are the minion controlers, and their strategy should go around his minions also, why not give a progressive way to aquire minions. Or, and this would resolve the issue completly to some extent, give more idols, repeated idols (repeted lvl of the minion) but give this idols bonus to demigod, for instance: "Sumon 2 lvl1 priests. Gain 250 mana and +7 mana regen"
Weaker bonus than the item ones but smth to help the general stay competitive.
In Beta 3b if I were playing Oak and you gave me more gold I would not spend any of that gold on idols. I would use all of that gold to
1. Buy myself items
2. Feed items to my allies
3. Buy citadel upgrades
If you give gangsters money to buy food for their families they will go out and get more guns..unless you make the family as deadly as the guns.
Buff minion damage. Make them worth their cost relative to items. Then and only then will we spend gold on them. If you give us more gold as well as buffing minions then no one will be playing Assassins.
If you insist on buffing gold for Generals, make it a skill line, like QoT's Money Tree.
_Mercury_ - General-Assassins (GAs) work really well against any combination, as long as the map is big enough, because all of the Generals have abilities that really buff survivability. GAs are very strong against any build that
1. Can't get the distance through ranged attacks or warpstone
2. Can't tank effectively
On Prison and Crucible I would argue a good Assassin team will still demolish every time, but Cataract and bigger allow Generals to shine..
All right, two things. First thing being...
You don't have to agree with Frogboy or anyone else writing anything on posts, but can't you at least be respectful and just discuss your disagreement? Throwing disrespect and all caps words into their faces just pisses them off. Hell, it pisses me off for them as well.
Secondly, I also think more gold would not necessarily help a minion problem, it would help an assassin-gear-buying spec. In my opinion the only real thing to do is add damage and improve the pathing of current minions to make generals actually want to use their minion specs. I can vouch for erebus' nightwalkers running around oblivious to commands and fights, and being incompetant at attacking things as well. I'd play more generals than QoT(who i play as an assassin) if I got some use out of them when compared to assassins.
If you want to be able to take on other Demigods 1v1 then play an assassin. If you want to patrol the map as a team (with a couple other demigods) then play a Gneeral. In a group of 3 players I would take along one or two of Sedna/Oak/Queen and one or two assassins. I was in a game where one side had 2 generals and the other had 2 assassins and both teams pack hunted the entire game. The match was very close and I think if either team had gone tripple assassin (or tripple general) they would have lost. As it was there was a lot of healing/shielding/buffing going on which made the fights way more interesting than the usual assassin gankfest.
That's well and dandy, but the generals you talk about are fighting alone, like assassins, aren't they?
Honestly, if the devs are absolutly adamant about keeping generals with minions (which I'm starting to think is a bit foolish) then in my opinion, the idols should be done away with.
You shouldn't punish general players by forcing them to -buy- the idols, but giving them extra money only overpowers the generals if they don't even use them.
In my opinion, Idols should just be something you get when leveling. At level 1, you get the minotaur, 2, the archers, 3, the bishop, 4, minotaur level 2, and so on.
Possibly with a gap of a level or two between each leveling up (you'd get a max upgrade for all by either 12, 15, or 18, with 0 levels gap, 1 level gap, and 2 levels of gap respectively)
This would solve the money issues and attempt to reinforce the idea that generals should be used as generals.
Or, they could just get rid of the generals concept and tune them to be powerful support assassins, which I have seen used to great effect already.
True also, no point in lowering costs, or buffing their damage, or anything else until they dont respond to orders. Its really very anoying and game breaking that minions dont respond to orders as they should. And its sad that no Developer or Stardock employe talks about this, and the reason for that, imo, that it is really game breaking.
Someone buys this game after release, tests it a few times, demigod gets unresponsive with some skill, minions dont attack who you order them 20x straigh, you quit the game and dont play it again. It really sucks.
Demigod has evolved a lot since beta 1, but is sad that engine betas ended and some major gameplay issues are still in.
What I mean is that Sedna, QoT, Oak and to a lesser extent Erebus are all viable additions to a strong group playing as "Assassins," though they are rather support oriented. It's not that they are only effective against UB or themselves, but that they bring less to the table than the "Big 3."
If I'm playing a 3v3 in the game is it is right now, I have no doubt that the ideal team is Rook, Reg, and Ice TB. No doubt. If I'm playing a 4v4, the ideal fourth would probably be a healer Sedna or maybe QoT or Oak (with shields / ranged slows).
It's not that way because the Generals can't take on the Assassins one-on-one. They're actually not so bad at that. In a team game where players group together and take advantage of ranged snares, stuns, and high damage abilities coordinated together, then the Generals tend to be hold you back. It's more a balance issue with the "Big 3"Assassins than it is with the Generals, though, because the Generals do bring a good deal to the table, just not anything as obviously dominating in a team setting as the Big 3. The combo of snipe, auto-ranged-snare, 2-3x shatter combo, boulder roll, and hammer slam simply has no comparison. Plus, the Big 3 Assassins all have high weapon damage. Put all that together and they can incapacitate opponents for a long enough time to kill them, which is roughly 3-5 seconds.
Unclean Beast is very strong, probably stronger than any of the Assassins, but he seems more geared towards dominating on his own, though he does have one channeled stun which is useful in teams.
I wouldn't feel at a disadvantage if one of my allies chose a General over UB, but I would feel at a disadvantage if my ally chose a General over one of the Big 3 (and the opponents had them).
Thanks Possibly, good explanation and matches my ( rather inexperienced ) thoughts.
And - WOOT !! finally games online !
It's just a matter of knowing the game well, finding out what works..
All the Generals are just as (well, Erebus and Oak not quite as) good as Regulas and UB if you never buy idols, and instead spend that money on buying items that buff your General.
People think Generals are bad because they waste their money on idols and try making minion builds. Generals aren't bad(well, Oak and Erebus are slightly underpowered), just the minion builds are bad.
We've said this a ton of times..
innociv I know u said it, I just try to understand the tactics. Like, I can win in AI game 2 vs 5, Reg and QoT vs 3 Sedna 2 Oak, no problem. With 5 ( non-QoT ) generals vs 5 assassins, I find it very hard. And also, somewhat boring. There just isn't a lot to do with Sedna, Oak and Erebus. They hardly want to get into melee against Rook or UB.
So, what am I doing so wrong ?
Also, it seems PossiblyImpossible disagrees with you, though you nodded his quote.
AI games don't really matter..
I just want to say I really am for gaining idols as you level up rather then having to buy them. can't stress enough how much I like that idea.
Until idol minions are useful more than killing creeps it won't matter
I wish a wave of reinforcement minions left unattended are actually something to be dealt with. At this point it's "Oh my towers will own them while taking barely any damage"
a spawn left unattended is powerful iin late game because if u leave it unattended than your towers will be destroyed and the moment your towers are destroyed its a hell of alot easier to win, also if u steal your opponets portal that is a bif plus and if your far into the game u will son win if your opponets don't get the flag back asp.
Back on topic generals are just a good as assasins without buying idols but most do alot better if your playing with someone else. As Innociv said if u don't play against humans it doesn't really count. Not just because playing against humans doesn't matter but because if your human u are alot smarter with moves like sheild and spells like that can provide the perfect time of being protected, enough time for a ally to escape or tele out but computer players dont think like that so they dont count. Minions can be however very useful if used properly.
WOW. You mean if generals got 1 gold more than Assassins it would break the game so bad? I didn't realize that the integrity of the game was so fragile.
I love how some people, with no game design experience whatsoever, are so certain in their knowledge. I guess it's a good thing I don't design games, I'm sure they'd all tank.
I got to love childish CEOs
Minions work fine for me. Won many a game because of them.
As for regular Creeps not threatening fortifications... they`re not supposed to on their own. Not until you at least get Angels then especially Catapultasauri (and colossal Giants).
Just a thought:
Assassins work good, cause if they're doing their job (killing other demigods), they're getting better at it (through XP and gold).
Generals don't work quite as good, cause they have to do an assassins job (and therefore skill for this job) to stay competitive on xp and gold.
So could a possible solution be a way to "pay for the generals job"? I don't know how to achieve something like that, perhaps greater boni for killing enemy reinforcements, or for buffing/healing own reinforcements, if measureable.
How do you think about that?
Disclaimer: This is based on my knowledge on income, so if I forgot something...
xp: Being near when enemy demigods or reinforcements are killed
gold: Being near when enemy demigods are killed, or holding gold mines
I'm chipping in for the free, automatic minions vs. having to buy the idols. I'm not buying the General Assassin. I General needs an army to be effective - he's not an Assassin. Perhaps I'm not thinking about the balance issues late game, but it just seems to make "sense".
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