I admit this post is a rant...
I really haven't played entrement since the first beta (way way way) back came out. I decided to give thing a try and have fun with these new star bases.
You know what I find? They are pointless at preventing people from running right through. I know there are damage costs, but I've seen a few people just go through and insta heal themselves with support ships. You might call that intellegent I guess, but it totally negates the cost of trying to create a chokepoint if they can go around the sb and jump to the next system with almost no penalty anyways.
With that said, the only use I see of a SB is fear factor, and holding the planet its built on. As for creating a choke point.. good luck. No game I've played yet has it actually done that. Which means I can not lay one and go fight on a another area. The one time I saw a Sb work as a choke point was in unison with mines, because the mines when placed right can deal damage if they try to go around the base... Even that is limited though.
I think there should be an adjustment for this. Weather its antimatter drain, disabling abilities for a duration after jumping past a base.... I don't know. I just think as it is, they do not protect a choke point adequately... or at all.
ships jumping out of a system with an SB lose ALL AM and a percentage of their current health.
I've always agreed with you. You can't create real choke points in this game. When the game came out I said this, and with Entrenchment I still say it. I think the problem is mainly the concept of the PJI. It just inhibits phase jumping, it doesn't stop it altogether.
I think Entrenchment just allows one to create a "soft choke," not a "hard choke." I'd prefer a "hard choke."
If you make a "hard choke" two decent players will play forever. They will throw units at their choke points forever to no vain ever. Only to have the choke points rebuilt. That is why the game allows some slack on the choke in my opinion. After all, this is space and some open ends are going to always be there. I don't mind the way the game is.
I think the SBs are fine. The are tough to take out and sometimes require entire fleats to take out an upgraded one. You can avoid it and try and cripple someones economy but you will eventually have to take on the starbase.
If you want to make SBs into perfect choke-point creators, just do what I did: Create a new toggleable ability that actually DISABLES phase jumping, and add that ability to whatever you want to have it (I added it to about 2-3 of each races 5 cap ships, each races jump inhibitor, and each races starbase). If you're interested in that, I'll post details on exactly what files I created/changed. Just let me know.
I usually play as Tec, and you can increase the damage to 50% when they exit your well. They have zero Anti-matter regardless, and if even a small back-up fleet can catch them (which is easy if you've got a PJI) they are toast. The cap ships have NONE of their abilities; carriers can't make more strike craft; repair ships need AM to repair (and they are half dead already). I usually try to put yet another starbase in second and third line planets (un-upgraded); that's yet another %50 if they try to keep running (which, like I said, my PJI in range of a repair bay takes care of).
..and mines. I usually play Advent and I use a couple of the SB's aircraft to setup mines in expected arrival points in the gravity well. PLus, if the Sb location is well chosen it will start hitting newcomers with abilities and weapons as soon as they hit the gravwell. Sure, they might still pass through the grav well and survive, but they ain't the same fleet afterwards.
And, the planets one jump away from the chokepoint won't be exactly defenseless either... =p
Two perfect players who always make perfect decisions will always play forever on a balanced game. That's with a hard choke, or without a hard choke. The choke has nothing to do with it. So, it boils down to what kind of game you want - a game with a more "open" flavor, or a game with a more "closed" flavor. I'd choose the closed, you'd probably choose the open.
calienon, I would like to see the changes you made to do this. I had just modified the planets to all double SB on terran and desert and 3 on terran and desert homeworlds, but I like your idea better or a combination of the two.
Yeah, but his point was that with a hard choke, you don't need two perfect players for this deadlock to occur. They just have to be two somewhat evenly skilled players. It's exponentially harder to attack a fleet in their own grav well where they have set up defenses (especially with Entrenchment). So if you get into the situation where each side has a choke, the invading force will always get killed and no one makes any progress. In this scenario, a players skill would have to more than compensate for the defensive advantage, which is a huge margin.
Wow you guys are crazy if a starbase could hold enemy fleets and keep it from jumping away the game would jsut become who can capture the enemy fleet first. This would kill MP and remove any strategy what so ever. Not to mention no one would send a fleet out without 40 bombers to kill your starbase in under a minute, which would just make the games go on for hours and hours.
Agreed.
I don't have much experience in Sins MP (hard to fit longish games of unpredictable length into schedule) but generally speaking, boosting defense is bad if you want an interesting, skillful, dynamic game.
I disagree. There are many, many strategy games (as well as simulations, etc) with the ability to create a "hard choke," yet it does not automatically result in a deadlocked game.
Not necessarily the starbase itself, but "something" whether it is a phase jump inhibitor or whatever. Also, it doesn't mean that a fleet is just held there forever, thus "game over." It just means that to move on, you have to destroy the phase jump inhibitor. Seems like a fair proposition to me.
Wouldn't remove any strategy at all. In fact, if anything it adds more map strategy.
Nothing wrong with long games, but in multiplayer with random people online I can definately see why you'd want the option for them to be shorter. In that case, the answer is just what I said - insert an option for them to be shorter. This can be done with map sizes, number of players in a game, and even on/off toggles to control whether a unit is buildable in a game or not (say, the PJI).
I've always thought that a more configurable game would reduce all the screaming people do about siege frigs, PJIs. carriers, length of games, and everything else. One would think this would have been implemented by the devs a long time ago, as it seems such an obvious solution to things.
Seconded. A toggle for research costs (cheap, normal, expensive) would be very welcome, so would an option for stronger hard counters. And victory conditions, of course, to deal with game length.
Personally I like long games, but not all at once so MP is pretty much off limits to me. A hard choke could be broken in a large game with many consecutive kostura rounds though.
Starbases do create choke points. To do this, you need proper positioning of PJIs, Mines, and SB(s). Then, keep a small fleet there, while your main fleet is else where. Keepling some flak around your SB is probably a good idea, along with fighter cover.
Most good players will take out the PJI prior to jumping, but if they are dump enough not to take it out first, you can probably use other tricks that also don't work on skilled players, like the PJI+Grav bomb/Ion bolt/repulsion combos. Choke points do exist, expereience players just find a way around them (my personal favorite is becoming the Kostura, which is easily attainable in Entrenchment).
Read my words "will never happen." I don't need to argue agaisnt it because it would fall on deaf ears. But I take solace in the fact that the devs know better. FYI PJIs worked just that way in BETA, and it was changed, because it was retarded. All it did is force peopel to go around with tons of bombers so they can kill the PJIs from a distance.
My favorit tactic is to hit quick and somewhere along the lines (say 2,000 HP), fire off nano-disembler, start moving your cap, and then move the rest of the fleet to the grav well to make the jump. By the time my fleet is ready to jump, the PJI is exploding and no time is wasted.
i'm with Astax. one of the most important elements of military strategy is mobility. just throwing everything you've got into the meat-grinder impassable choke point is just flat out boring and stupid. if i wanted that kind of gameplay i'd go play one of those Tower Defense games on Kongregate.com
The only good Choke point SB is TEC's one.
i wont tell you why, play against me and figure it out yourself ^__^
don't be coy. Safety Protocol Override, obvs.
SOMEBODY SET US UP THE BOMB!
The idea of a "hard" chokepoint in a space game is just thematically wrong, but from a gameplay perspective I think Starbases make plenty hard chokepoints. The premise that fleets "instaheal" after leaving the gravwell is false, since not only do Starbases cause significant hull damage, it drains their anti-matter! That fleet may have bypassed your starbase, but it is now extremely vulnerable.
YOu can't just plop one starbase down and expect it to never be bypassed, but it offers incredible boosts to defense in the gravwell. If you had some limited defenses in nearby systems, you would absolutely shred that fleet that fled your starbase. And if they try to run away? Back through your starbase? Ouch.
Starbases aren't designed to work alone. Build hangars. Clog common jumppoints with mines. You can defend heavily now with entrenchment, but you can't expect to just plop a starbase down and complete ignore that front.
LOL - sure it is. But that doesn't mean your enemy will just give it to you for free. Your mobility will be obtained by you through your blood, sweat, and tears, just like everything else. If you can achieve it, more power to you. If you can't, "tough noogies."
Favorite choke point: Starbase at planet with a plasma storm behind it. Always funny to see the enemy jump through the starbase with their carrier fleet only to find out their strikecraft are grounded in the next well where my fleet is waiting. hahahahaha
I disagree. Vasari have excellent ways of making a good choke point with a small fleet lying in wait. PJI+Subverter or Grav Bomb = gg.
Also, I will keep repeating that the Kostura Cannon will help you get around ANY choke point.
I've never seen a problem myself. Yes an enemy fleet can just rush past the base and out but the idea isnt to stop them completely, its to make it more risky to do so.
I mean think about it youve gathered a big fleet together, you jump to a planet, theres a starbase, nw you can either engage the starbase before moving on OR you can jump past it to the next grav well, imagine you jump to the next grav well, you take damage, and then a large hostile fleet pops into view, basically with your fleet in tatters after the jump your screwed lol
After an upgrade to phase distabilisation even lighter defences would be a risk to your fleet if you just jummp past a starbase,,,assuming the dude who's territory your in has actually bothered putting a decent defence around the other colonies at least.
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