I agree, that simply adding a new type of strikecraft is not the answer... if at all, the answer is to be found in how strikecraft behave. lets look at today's carrier battle groups... why dont they sit in the middle of the ocean and launch attacks from a nice safe distance (more or less)?
because the strikecraft on these carriers only have so much range and weapons capacity. this is why carrier battle groups must get as close to the battlefield as possible/safe.
my idea, is that instead of adding the new interceptor (sorry, CreditSuisse, it was a good idea) we alter the behaviour of strikecraft.
that is, bombers must return to their carrier after their payload is depleted (perhaps an opportunity for a new research item?), when they run out of fuel (perhaps 60 seconds flight time? depending on the speed of the game) or when they get damaged (damage reduces speed, combat effectiveness and longevity). fighters must return for the same reasons, whichever comes first. the fighters themselves must be made faster and more manouverable, able to take on bombers and other fighters more effectively, however, their effectiveness against any sort of frigate, cruiser, capital ship or structure (barring mabye trade, refinery and construction ships) must be negligible. as for the Advent in particular, with their energy weapons, lets say that due to their small size, SC generators cannot sustain the power needed for weapons indefinitly, and need to be boosted by a a carriers reactor (something like that) and i think the Vasari use phase missiles.. which are still missiles and so have to be replaced.
SC should not be able to remain launched at all times. they should remain on their respective carriers at all times until you encounter enemy forces, at which time all SC should launch automatically... but slowly, as though the SC are actually launching and not all 56 SC in your fleet can launch at the same instant, although maybe Caps can launch faster... being Caps. on that same note, SC should not be able to be built instantly. they should be built very slowly and one by one, or even not at all until the battle is over. i mean, on an aircraft carrier today, once you lose a plane, you've probably lost it for days if not weeks...
one other large change to be made should be SC range, both between each craft in a squadron, and each squadron from its host. you shouldnt be able to jump in a carrier fleet at the edge of a GW, and send the bombers out to wreak havoc on the other side of the GW. just like a modern day carrier, strikecraft must be able to return to base to re-arm and re-fuel and get back into the fight quickly.
this would also enable the devs to scrap the flak frigate and merge its functionality with the carrier (i.e. put flak weapons on the carrier cruiser) the carrier has to be in range of the fight anyway, and this way we save fleet supply and make use of the tactic the flak frigate was supposed to provide, as, after all, its easier to destroy the carrier than the SC.
one more thing... im thinking about planetary hangar defenses... perhaps these hangars would have specialised SC's with a larger capacity for fuel and weapons, giving them greater range. the storyline back up could be that due to the mobile nature of carriers, they cannot sustain SC's at the ranges and timespans of planetary based squadrons, since these squadrons have the supplies of the planet (and the empire) at their disposal. to balance however, lets say carrier SC do more damage and are harder to kill (being more veteran pilots etc)
so, to sum up. No, i dont think the interceptor is a good idea... well, it is, but not for Sins, not when we have what we have now.
however, i think current strikcraft behaviour should be altered, so that fighters and bombers must return to the carrier on a regular basis to re-arm, re-fuel and repair. perhaps a technique could be implemented to give you the choice to have all SC fighting at once, or have half fighting and half waiting for the first half to return, so that you always have SC in the battle at some point.
i also think that SC sould only be able to operate in a limited range around its respective carrier, and also merging the flak frigate weapons with the carrier cruiser to increase its combat usefulness and also saving fleet supply.
fighters should be more manouverable and faster, more capable to engage bombers and other fighters, but effectively useless vs. frigates and larger.
SC should launch at a realistic pace (perhaps 2 craft (not squadrons) every second or two? based on game speed, and even then, they wont enter combat until the entire squadron has launched and assembled) so that you dont instantly have a huge cloud of whirling, missile spitting death.
lastly i think that planetary hanger defenses should have special SC with larger capacity for fuel and weapons, giving them a longer range and operating time, but making them less lethal than their mobile cousins.
i think that was all.... not to ring my own bell, but it seems like a good idea to me, this way everyone is happy and SC dont get too nerfed.
[EDIT] ive had another idea, that would cancel alot of problems out, if standard light carriers did not give you the option of choosing what to build, i.e. all came with one fighter squadron and one bomber squadron, it could solve alot of issues with superior numbers in one or the other... i have to say im not a great fan of this idea, i like the control of being able to choose... but if its seen that having all too many bombers or fighters is going to cause inbalance issues, then maybe its a course the devs will have to take...
This is why scouting is important. A few things to consider though since you are talking about Entrenchment
1) Flak can't go against Starbases - SC can (though fighters are not as good as bombers).
2) SC aren't affected by mines - Flak are
3) SC cannot be negated with subverters or hoshikos etc... (I know the flak can kill SC so that is not the argument. The argument is that SC can kill these ships that can lock down/remove all combat ability of flak without taking fire in return as the support ships cannot shoot the SC).
4) You assume that SC is the only offensive element of the opposing fleet. If the fleet is mixed they can send in ligh frigs and Heavy Cruisers to kill them, plus the support ships to disable them... Plus cap abilities to modify the damage they receive/give (see next point).
5) Flak are killable by Marzabation, as well as other abilities (volatile nanite, Malice etc...) SC are not (Yes the SC have cap abilities that are nasty to them, but the point I am making is I can run my fleet from the Marza and try and kill/heavily damage it without it getting missile barrage out).
That being said - flak in a fleet is never a bad thing, even if it is just to thin out the fighters that are mixing it up with your fighters...
Well to end the whole scientufic arguments behind all this. Ships in sins use antimatter to power everything (with exra reseves for abilities) basically antimatter is the best and most efficient sourse of energy there is. And the fact they restore antimatter overtime means they have apperently limittless energy so basically there no reasons from that point of veiw to refuel.
That said.Why do SC need to be fixed in the first place? There useful now. Remember way back, when you would never build them. As it stands now a pure carrier spam fails. Mixed fleets win battles. Now that carriers are strong it actually forces mixed fleets with support cruisers to help your other ships survive
In closing I like the status quo, and see no reason to change anything beyond normal minute balance tweaks.
first off, to the best of my knowledge, the only other Sci Fi show to use antimatter to power the ship is Star Trek. now, based on the theory from those series, yes, antimatter is very effecient, but not limitless. and, its not the anti-matter by itself that powers the ships engines, but rather, a controlled matter/antimatter reaction (very much like a nuclear reaction, except the power output from a matter/antimatter reaction is 100's of orders of magnitude above that of a simple nuclear reaction, fission or fusion) However, just like anything else, it is not perpetual, you still need to provide the materials to power the reactor. in nuclear reactions, its plutonium/uranium or the like, in matter/antimatter reactions (based on Star Trek theory) it is Deuterium... something like that, but nonetheless, it exists. so, point here being that regardless of its effeciency, matter/antimatter reactors still need to be refuelled.
now, id like to make a point here? how many people in this forum knows how a nuclear reactor works? i wont bore everyone with the little details, but basically, a particle is fired at the plutonium atom, the atom splits, hitting other atoms, splitting those, this is called a chain reaction. a nuclear reactor simply uses a controlled chain reaction to create heat, which it uses to heat water to steam, which is then channelled through turbines which generate electricity. the steam then cools back to water, cools down other equipment, and cycles back to the furnace to become steam again. point of interest, this is exactly how coal/gas power generatos work, except in that the heat that is used to make steam obviously comes from burning the coal/gas.
so... how do you intend to fit all of that on a fighter?
now, as for a matter/antimater reaction, the theory is, that when matter and antimatter come into contact, they cancel each other out, and this creates massive amounts of energy (most common/abundant of these being heat, and then probably radiation). another byproduct is that when the shockwave of this reaction reaches other matter or antimatter, the matter etc is consumed, and fuels the reaction, making the explosion larger. which effectively means that a large enough initial explosion could quite possibly destroy an entire solar system.
but, lets say for arguements sake that a antimatter reactor generates electricity as a product of the reaction, making the reactor smaller, it still needs refuelling, the smaller size means less power generation, and the nature of the reaction makes it very dangerous to put on a small, lightly armored fighter.
on a side note, think of it, if we put a small nuclear reactor on a fighter, and the reactor was damaged and went critical... imagine the fallout? it wouldnt be as bad as an actual nuclear weapon, due to critical mass values and all sorts of other science, but it would still make a heck of a bang. same thing would go or SC in Sins, except the explosion made by the antimatter reactor would, again, be hundreds of orders of magnitude greater than that of a simple nuclear reactor, meaning BIG BADA BOOM. methinks bad idea
so, thats the theory being antimatter reactions, but still, anti-matter reactions dont act as engines outright, as there is nothing to use as thrust... what they would do is power phase jump engines, but not sublight, because sublight needs something to expel as a function of creating thrust. in Star Trek, the Warp Core (anti-matter reactor) didnt generate the warp field, the nacelles (the blue things on pylons behind the ship) were the things that enabled warp, the warp core simply generated the power for it (i know, they should have called the warp core something different, but it still sounds cool)
and after all this, im still talking about the larger ships, and to be honest, everytime they are in a gravity well that you or an ally owns, they could be refuelling behind the scenes, its not a function we as commanders need to worry about, however as for SC: THEY HAVE NO ANTIMATTER. so... to be honest, i could have refuted your entire arguement right there, but i decided to go into the science of it for the understanding of the greater community. yes, larger ships wont need to refuel as often, caps probably not at all for the duration of the game considering onboard stores and like i said, behind the scenes refueling... i mean, TEC starbases withthe docking booms upgrade replenish antimatter? theres your refuelling right there!
now, onto your second point. i never said SC were not useful, i agree completely, sometimes they can be too useful though. if you had read all the posts, you would have known that i am quite happy to leave SC as they are, however, from my own style of play, i can imagine how irritating one of my massive bomber clouds would be, you spend hours getting a cap ship to level 6-10, and my bombers will erase it for you in a matter of seconds. from my point of view, i could say: screw all you guys, ill leave it like that and just erase all your cap ships and starbases for you
but no, i saw something that would be unfair, noticed a common concern with it in forums, and decided to put an effort in to maybe fix this... problem, for lack of a better word.
now, i have never built a pure carrier spam since entrenchment (and before then, that was just to protect my home star) and i ALWAYS build diverse fleets... but if you have 4 starbases in a gravity well with 56 bomber squadrons with weapons fully upgraded... show me the fleet that wont suffer serious attrition before jumping out or destroying the starbases.
In closing, I too, am fine with the status quo, but i can tell you, that if someone did to me with strikecraft what i do to my enemies, i would be VERY VERY pissed off. thats is why i am posting these proposed changes, because they, at the moment, seem to me to be some of the best ways to balance out a POSSIBLY OVERPOWERING AND NEARLY UNCOUNTERABLE game tactic.
i would like to put in a seperate post here something i dont think anyone has mentioned yet.
Flak frigates and Cap ship abilities aside, if you seriously want to stave off a 50-100+ strong bomber cloud with minimal damage, you are going to need equal or superior amounts of fighters. that said if you focus all your SC capacity on fighters, then you have no room for bombers, and SC become useless, because you have bombers doing no damage, fighters busy tied up with mopping up constantly re-enforcing bombers, and nothing happens. might as well be no SC fighting at all.that is why im trying to find a way to keep fighters as combat effective as possible, while attempting to reduce their obvious, near uncounterable strength in numbers
on another seperate note, id like to ask the group of people posting on this thread to please refrain from stupid, unhelpful remarks, like:
I think SC balance should be left alone just because,
or
Haha, looks, its another baby crying over SC inbalance, grow up and suck it up,
Stop whinging and get Entrenchment you cheapass
none of which is helpful, it only introduces hostility and anger into the forums, and that is not needed, not in a post from someone who has percieved a problem and is trying to fix it.
and, in advance, i want to say that i will continue to defend and promote my ideas, because, like i said, if i dont believe in them, who else will? so, i apologise for sometimes seeming stubborn, but thats the way it works, and again, stupid posts like "Just Because", or insulting comments, or comments that are unhelpful and/or irrelevant and just want to cloud the topic, are completely unnessecary and unwelcome
thanks for reading, and please continue to post
LOL. I know I hate being on the recieveing end of a bomber or fighter swarm. They can be countered with lots of flak, but not before they take out at least a couple of caps, which is the whole point, I believe.
Just a side note. That was pretty much the simplest, easiest to understand, helpfully concise explanation of a nuclear reaction that I've ever heard. How do you make it sound so simple?
i practise in front of the mirror every night before i go to sleep
no, i just read alot, i had to write an essay of the feasibility of nuclear power generation in Australia for my final year of school, AND i just like to read alot
if you are interested, i HIGHLY recommend Patrick Robinson's Barracuda 945, its a fictional story about naval terrorism using an old-ish Russian Barracuda nuclear submarine. its a fictional story, but it still has all the actual science in it, and its easy to read/understand. then, if you are hungry for more, just go on wikipedia.
thanks for the compliment by the way
Persionally I hate carriers and strike craft, to hard to mirco manage and the carriers themself everyone just runs them away from your static defences and repair facilitys and while you chase them doing less dps their strike craft are super fast moving and have no problems pummeling your running shooting forces to a carrier that running away and has alot of life and shields. Honeslty I hate stike craft and carriers their way to overpowered expecailly in mass not to mention most static defence cant even hurt strike craft assuming their even in range for the ones that can ( which is heavy reaeach taking away from my military = loss)
um, i dont quite get that... can you rephrase?
He doesn't like carriers as the SC kill his ships and he doesn't know how to kill them as the carriers won't come and sit within range of his static defences. So his stuff gets blown up while the other player (AI?) doesn't lose anything.
wow, well done, it all makes sense now...
Has to be multi-player. AI's don't kite their carriers around like that, at least not that I've seen.
As to counter that. Late game for TEC the Kodiak has a 'rush the target' ability. Use this to get in range of the carriers, then a few Kodiaks will tear them apart, unless their cap carriers, of course.
In theory I love rush to target, but in practice it annoys me to no end, because if I have a lot of Kodiaks selected, I have to tab through them and trigger the ability for each one. Otherwise just the first one in the group selected "rushes".
Thank you, thank you.
I'm here all week. Try the veal!!!
not to be a jerk and state the obvious, but isnt that why we have hangar defenses and defending ships?
but i agree, this kiting (its never happened to me... lucky?) thing sounds most irritating.... and not to ring my own bell, but i think limiting the amount of time SC are launched and fighting could possibly negate this tactic.... if we want it negated that is... i personally am perfectly happy to leave my carriers in the middle of the fleet, besides, who is attacking carriers when you have a massively leveled Kol or 30 Kodiaks bringing the rain on your fleet/structures
but yeah, if people think its unfair, then thats all the more reason why SC should have to come back to the carrier to be re-supplied, (fuel, ammo, whatever) that way, you cant run your carriers around forever while your SC loiter around elsewhere doing uncounterable damage...
Now that's something I'd like to make a feature request:
Just as you can hit alt+click to select all the units of the same type, I'd like to be able to hit alt+click on an ability and have all units with that ability activate them at once.
"Okay, Kols... flak burst in 3..2..1(kaboom)"
haha... niiice =P
The problem is that strikecraft are 'something for nothing'. Even if your opponent builds tons of flak, he spent a shitload of cash on a niche unit that has very little use outside of killing strikecraft; since your strikecraft are free to replace, well, horray for you. Sure the premium on carriers is a lot higher, but they can vaporize anything in seconds if you have enough - especially if you're Vasari.
Look at how strikecraft worked in Homeworld - you had interceptors and bombers, generally the same thing we have here: Interceptors were good against Bombers, bombers were good against anything heavier. Defensively, every 'big' ship had minor point defenses to harrass / whittle away at strikecraft. Okay, it didn't do MUCH damage, but it was something. Both sides had anti-strikecraft frigates - the flak frigate would decimate grouped strikecraft, and the assault / missile frigates, while not as powerful individually as a flak, were very effective with seeking missiles.
Now in between frigates and strikecraft you had Corvettes - which functioned as 'heavy interceptors'. One type of Corvette was excellent at killing Corvettes, and one was effective against strikecraft. Maybe this 'hole' in Sins is what's needed?
At any rate, an anti-strikecraft cruiser may be what we need. Small groups of flaks are woefully inadequate, partially because they have EXTREMELY low DPS due to the speed of strikecraft.
Oh and MAJORLY buff / fix the anti-strikecraft capital ship special abilities. The level 3 Kol flak burst is hilariously useless - it does 60 damage, and generally with some upgrades strikecraft have way more than that (like 100 or so hull strength?). And a bomber with 1 hull point still does the same damage as one with 120. Having to spend 300+ antimatter to blow up some free strikecraft is stupid.
a 'corvette' or flak cruiser would be very good i think, but then i just have a weak spot for new ships.
lots of people will whine about it, but i think its a good idea. lets say for TEC while the frigate has AutoCannons the Cruiser has banks of missiles plus an ability, or two sets of weapons, Autos and Missiles etc without an ability, for example
i think caps definitly need to have a serious flak upgrade in addition to the ability... maybe some sort of rapid fire weapons (i.e. autocannons) with either a primary or secondary AoE effect (i.e. EMP charges?)
however, like you said, even if we introduce a new ship, you still need to spend resources on it... while SC are still free and largely uncounterable... if theres no anti-SC ship in the area you can have all the anti-Sc stuff you want, the SC will still wipe out your undefended ships
Hell, in Homeworld 2, even the Torpedo Frigate could fire cluster torpedos that blew up strikecraft real pretty. Strikecraft had a TON of counters, because they were fast, could do some damage, and most importantly: cheap.
really? cool! ive been thinking to myself lately why all ships dont have 2 or more banks of weapons to fire at more targets at once... even if all ships just had basic flak weapons... it would at least look awesome (im thinking of the strafing runs made by Star Trek ships... relly cool) though i can say that right now the majority of players wouldnt go for it... just me and my wishful thinking
i mean, to be honest... LF laser or a Kol beam blast should have an equally destructive effect than if the SC had been hit with a flak burst... iin reality, if a SC should happen to collide with a laser beam or plasma torpedo or even a ship, it would be destroyed... however, in Sins, it appears they have developed the technology for small strikecraft to be able to survive a journey through the core of a sun and back out the other side with no problems... so why should a laser or something silly like that worry them.... unfortunatly that level of tracking required to tell if a SC has hit a ship or weapons fire is somewhat complicated... so Sc already have many things going for them in their favour...
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