Okay, so my rig was maybe B+ 2 years ago when I bought it, so now it's like F---- so I figured it's time to upgrade, I went from 1GB memory to 4GB no prob, that was a huge perfomance increase, and now I figure it's time to upgrade arguably the most integral part of PC gaming, the Graphics card.
Current system spects (Don't laugh too hard, tution is expensive!)
ABIT KN9 SLI motherboard Socket AM2
AMD Athlon64 X2 4200+ (2.2GHZ) Overclocked to 2.42GHZ (go go aftermarket cooling!)
4GB (2x 2GB) DDR2 PC6400 Memory (Corsair, High performance, DHX)
Hard Drive, Laughable 7200RPM Hitachi 320GB
GeForce 8600GT 256MB (DDR3)
-------------------
What I'm upgrading too (Compatibility willing)
GeForce 9800GTX+ (512MB DDR3)
This requires 450 watts of juice and 24 Amps on 12V rails it has 2x 6pin connectors
My Powersupply is a NZXT PF-500 Max DC Output 500 Watt
12 Volt Rail ratings +12V1:16Amp +12V2: 17Amp. According to Xfx I meet the requiments since it's 2 seperate rails delivering over the required 24Amps.
The Problem: I only see once 6pin Connector but my PSU was made in the transition between PCI-E and PCI-E 2.0 so it has One 6pin, and a heap of 4pins. Can I use a 4pin to 6pin Adapter to supply the rest of the Juice?
It's stupid crap like this that prevent more and more people from hitting PC gaming more than consoles, eventually PC gaming is going to be undone by it's own progress lol.
just a quick calculation
old sys cpu 90watts,md 30watts,hdd 30watts ram? 20watts? old gef8600 200watt??? old system estimated draw 370watts total< 500watt psupply should work fine
new sys ,90watt cpu,mb 30 watts, 30watt hdd, ram 20watts? newgef980gtx+ 450watt estimated draw is 620 watts total >500watt psupply no boot
based on the fugures I would recomend budgeting atleast a 750watt supply as well as the card
hope this helps you
harpo
Nope - new PSU is needed. I'm running a 9800GTX and that is fed from a 750W with no problems. You need at least that to be safe, more if you can afford it. 900W is good for gaming.
or boot with no video..
i would suggest a 750 mate simple reason is you have everything i have the only difference is our motherboards & HDD i wouldnt upgrade your GFX anyway to a 9 series the 8series is the same and the 8600gt is a good card
Haha, I get super cheap stuff from Newegg and my Graphics card is actually total crap, it can't even run Morrowind GE edition at a stable frame rate (granted, it's an Oblivion esque look alike in GE mode) and I never had those probs on my old 7900 that blew up.
I misphrased the 450 watt drain thing, it actually drains more like 300 or so I think (I'll speak directly with an XFX guy in the morning, but support tickets are super freakin slow), 450 (With 350 being the minimum recomended for the Geforce 8600 I already have) is the minimum recomended to run on most systems, but even then, yah, I'm super iffy about getting it anyway, but if I can, I'm getting it at literally 1/2 the Retail price, so if it doesn't boot up, no biggy. I absolutely ABHOR changing power supplies, I'd rather get an entirely new system before changing PSU's
The voltage rails are what I'm concerned about, because if I boot up with insuffucient wattage, there's no real damage that can be done (that I know of) however, messed up Voltage rails can fry PSU's and graphics boards.
**It looks like according to Nvidias Site (Unless I suck at reading and inturpreting which is quite likely) The GTX+ 's peak power usage alone is 141W
"Minimum SYSTEM power requirment" 450W"
Maximum Graphics card power: 141W"
Did I misinturpret that (Sorry for question spam you guys are bein super helpful tho and I'm a little noobish at this, I'd rather ask stupid questions and feel like an idiot than blow up my PC lol ^^)
Nvidia's site says 141W max draw for a 9800GTX+.
You should be okay, but ideally you'd replace your PSU with a quality 650W or better.
You might want to undervolt your CPU-you state you've OC'd it 200MHZ above stock, but you don't mention the voltage, which is the real power hog (not that the Athlon X2s are power hogs anyway, but you're going to be close enough to the line that you might have to worry about it).
Based on what information I'm able to find, the rails look acceptable, and yes, you can get away with using a molex to PCI-E adapter, although I'd lean towards using a 2 molex to 1 PCI-E.
Split-rail PSUs cannot actually deliver the full total on both simultaneously. The actual capacity is generally 2/3 to 3/4 of the sum at best. IIRC the recommendation was ~16A for CPUs alone last I checked, so you definitely need more.
It really depends on the power supply you're getting. For instance, a good 550WA PSU will power that thing, no problem. The Antec 550WA True Power Trio will be a perfect match for that. However, a 650wa will allow greater upgrades later, but it adds a bit of pricing. Don't know why that guy up there said you need at least 750WA, or a good 900WA for gaming.
@KRYO - that is true, but it depends on the power supply. The PSU capable of delivering 80PLUS efficiency will give you more of 95% power from each 12V railing. Also, the CPU's on new PSU's nowadays will have their of 12V rail (Now split in to amprage rails?), just to give the video more power.
Lastly, you may want to take a look at the news. nVidia is releasing their GTS 250 model video card, with is a slightly faster clocked G92B video card. In otherwords a rebranded 9800GTX+, but it'll be the same price. (Or look at ATI's RV790 when it releases. "HD 4970" video card.)
80PLUS (which itself only applies to the relation between line draw and actual supply) only requires a 0.9 power factor at full load, and full load is not something you want to be running at for any extended period. But even still that's only a measure of efficiency, which is not the same thing as capacity.
Just for example, looking at a basic Antec 550 PSU (not 80PLUS, so while a bit exaggerated, the same rule still applies), it claims to offer three 12v rails, at 22A/22A/25A, which totals to 828W. And yet the actual maximum draw on those lines combined is only 384W... which gives a max combined current of only 32A. As you add more rails, it only gets worse, and on top of that you have to try and balance the loads on each to get the best efficiency.
your other option would be a Radeon HD 4850. it's cheaper, requires less power, and the performance should be on par or better than the 9800 GTX+.
One rule of thumb i've always followed is that *Do not try making a "normal stock manufactured for a purpose" mobo to become a BETTER gaming gear than it already is.
Overclocking, wrongfully matched PSU to board specs, up railings (direct or otherwise, btw) can only lead to -- sadly-- an eventual fried Tower as a whole.
Sure, new technology equals performance but you have to make a choice sooner or later... BUY a pre-built wonder instead of upgrading this & that & other stuff until the Hardware infra-structure becomes an hybrid so tied in chaos voltage that it WILL fail at one point.
Trust the companies who build PC packages, they electronically stabilized the entire set while giving some leeway in upgrades that may fit specific needs.
Not enough, change the entire thing.
Believe me, i fried many good PCs with ambitions beyond characteristics. In the long run, it wasn't worth it.
Now, the Graphics card; again, it's a matter of mobo capacity. It's a general industry growth where power comes at a price - you guessed it - closely dependant on the Tower limitations. Sure, a PCI has appeal... but i ran an old AGP for years without any flaws while keeping the entire 'structure' as built. Eventually, i too went for Vista, i even snapped a GE6400 to replace an MX4400 on a Pentium IV board.
Today, i do have a Dual Core CPU... and i wont slap a 750W PSU on that thing simply because ACER built-it with another strong enough for what i need. It doesn't mean that the 386DX40 i enjoyed back then wasn't made for minimal gaming either - it's just that a hardcore gamer should own a different (or ever soooo slightly enhanced) PC than some casual desktop gear.
Essentially, every assembly of components that differs (too much, btw) from recommended usage can burn a mobo & plenty of other stuff beyond repairs.
Lucky us, SATA drives are slowly entering the Terabytes realms - don't try plugging it in on a PC that can't handle it though.
I would say upgrading the PSU is a must with newer graphics cards these
days. Here is a link to a good PSU ... for a average system these days..
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194027
It's over $100 US dollars, but you are getting a good unit for the price.
On the Nvidia 9800 GTX+ cards ... I would stay away from them ... There
has been a lot of blak about them having issues with over heating and
or just dieing after a few days of use.
Right now ATI cards are at a better price over Nvidia cards ...
I have just installed 2 ATI 4830s in my test system .. so far
I've not had any issues with them. Bottom line, it comes down
to you on what vendor yon prefer ...
In the end .. a update to the PSU is a most in my book ....
Strongly seconded. I own one of these and it is a brilliant card. It will run games such as Fallout, Demigod, or Empire Total at ultra-high settings with no problems.
My rig is set up similarly to yours. I have a dual Athlon proc (2.8), 4 gigs ram, 2 hard drives, and of course, the 4850. I run all this with a 430 watt Thermaltake ps, and have never had an issue at any load. Heck, the thing barely gets warm.
My advice is to go with the 4850. Chances are it will work just fine, and save you a few ducats in the process. I know you have an SLI mobo, but unless you are planning to buy a second vid card in the near future, it really doesn't matter.
the 4850 is a great bang/buck card.
as for the general recommendations about PSUs, i'm not familiar with that particular model, so i can't vouch for its DC output quality. however i haven't heard anything negative about NZXT as a brand name, and 500W should be plenty for the 4850. in theory it should be enough for a 9800GTX+ as well, but i'd have to second what Kryo said the rail configuration as the place where i'd worry.
as for Zyx's comments about simply upgrading to a new OEM machine, well he's certainly entitled to his opinion, however i've had more negative experiences with OEM machines than i've ever had with well-researched DIY builds. sure people can get burned if they don't do their homework, but i've been burned far more often with OEMs: sub-standard PSUs, poorly developed BIOS, low-quality RAM, and the list goes on. part of the reason they can sell their products at the prices they do is the quantities they can move: the other part of it comes from the components they use. his assertions about everything being tested together to work together are also i believe unfounded; my experiences with OEM technical support, besides telling me that these people are under-paid and often technically unskilled, is that they put in no more QA with component configurations than companies that manufacture individual components. since all of these parts are meant to live up to certain standards, there's no a priori reason to assume whole OEM machines are any better than a DIY build.
I have a 4850x2 and it rocks. The 4850 chip is the most under estimated video out there. I strongly recommend it. For power 650 is minimum, 750 gives you more room to expand.
I'm running a 4850 x2 with Phenom 2 940, 8 GB ddr2-1066 and three 160 GB striped with two DVD burners on a 650 with no power issues at all. But it is a very good 650.
along with the other people here recommending the ati 4850 I also have one and it has ONLY one 6pin power connecter, but in my box it is a q6600 oc to 2.8 4gb 1066dominator ram 3 500gb samsung hdds 2 dvds the 4850 on an sli mb with a 650w psupp & everything works
i think you're over-estimating power needs just a bit; most people do, and of course it's always nice to have more than you need (i certainly do). i still don't think the OP would need to ugrade his PSU for a 4850 if his PSU is decent quality.
It's also worth noting that overestimating it will only hurt you in the initial outlay. Regardless of rating, it'll only draw as much from the mains as it needs. Not so much with underestimating, which can end in fried parts or even a fire, especially if it's a cheaper model without the built-in failsafes against that sort of thing.
You deffinately NEED to upgrade the PSU. the above the info is great info. Yes there is the possibility of no boot or boot with no video. this would be due to lack of power. What I did not see mentioned is that the lack of power that will cause this is even more serious.
the fact about under powered PSUs is that they WILL, sooner or later,fry system hardware. usually the VGA (Video) card is the first to go because it is usually the single most power demanding componet, and then possibly followed by the motherboard, etc...
Trust me.. I learned the hard way and lost both a VGA and Mainboard within a week of each other.
I would suggest:
1. read this it will explain Why your PSU is so Important as well as other aspects of the PSU such as efficiency rating (ie. it's not just the rating but at what temp it was rated) as well as Why you should run a PSU that is AT LEAST 30% larger in power capicity that what your system demands.
2. Visit JonnyGuru.com Possibly the BEST site concering PSUs. They extensively test PSUs and rate them. They also do not recommend a PSU unless they can give it a 9 or better rating on a scale of 1-10.
use both of these to make an Educated purchase on a new PSU.
3. I would strongly suggest (as others have) NO Less that a 750W 60A PSU. My personal favorite is the PC Power and Cooling 750Quad. as well it is one of the FEW that JonnyGuru gives a 9 or better rating.
4. IF You take even just one thing out of all this REMEMBER THIS! It is NOT ALL about the WATTS, but rather about the AMP output of the PSU.
while your at it you may want to consider upgrading your CPU. You can do that for under $100 at newegg. I would suggest the 5000, 5400, or 6400 Black Editions if you can find them, or the 6000.
kyro, you are so right on the failure points, but I have seen a powersupply DESTROY an entire system with mission critical data on it and it cost thousands of dollars to recover the data from the FRIED HDD(the hdd & other components were SMOKING when power was switched on).
the only penalty for overspecing the powersupply is in the wallet, ie cost, as most if not all of the better supplies do have overvoltage and overcurrent protection built in, therefore minimizing the risk of haveing to take the remains to a data recovery specialist.
these are great points, and i hope it didn't seem that i was indicating otherwise. however one thing i'd point out is that you do continue to pay for a beefier PSU than you need, assuming you pay your own electricity bill -- even when they are highly energy efficient. that said, i personally prefer to err on the side of caution in these matters, myself. i've got a 700W PSU in a system more modest than the OP's.
i think the question of whether it's a definite need depends entirely on the quality of the PSU. if it's a good PSU it should be more than enough. as a basis of comparison, the electricity consumption of intel's skulltrail system with dual 8800GTXs and all the fixins was measured at the wall at less than 600W (reference here:http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTQ1OCw3LCxoZW50aGlzdWFzdA==
of course i wouldn't want to put a 600W PSU into that system. still, i think 30% above needs might be a little high; and it's also worth noting that most PSU calculators automatically add 10-20% "overhead". in either case, i think a good quality 500W PSU should handle an athlon X2, a 4850 and the rest of his system well enough. i didn't look into his PSU to answer that question, and i don't know if you did (so please accept my apologies if you did and you were making your recommendations based on that knowledge). in either case, kudos for providing good references for the OP to make an informed decision.
Thanks for all the info, but I'm trying to avoid buying (And more so installing) a new PSU altogether because any PSU I'm absolutely sure will work bumps my cost up about triple (The 9800GTX+ is costing me a measly 80 bucks) not to mention replacing a PSU is like performing minor surgery, sure it's 90% likely nothing will happen, but sometimes shit happens.
As for all the Nvidia bashing, I absolutley HATE ATI cards, I had an MX440 outperform a Radeon 9800 simply because the damn ATI drivers were such crap and their support was next to getting a kick in the groin. Of the10 or so Nvidia Cards I've worked with, only 1 gave me issues in drivers (Which Nvidia supplies beta drivers for which worked, all within 20mins of an email) and I had 1 fry, but that was Ibuypower's fault (Who built my system originally) So let's just say ATI lost a customer for life, I don't care about their DDR5 Hypermagichappysauce, they could have 1 dollar ultimate cards, and I'll still never buy from them again. Also XFX backs all their cards with Lifetime warranties, unconditional Double (So I can even sell it later and give the buyer a warranty) which mean sif it blows up, I'm just out 6 bucks shipping and a few days of using one of my many many many backup cards.
According to (And I don't know how reliable it is) eXtreme Power Supply calculater 2.5 even with 30% capacitor Aging and a 9800+ installed, total wattage drained is 358 (At 100% load) But again, wattage was never the concern. And they want 2 bucks for the pro version to check rails, Screw that!
Though most of that is irrelivant, because it looks like damage could result, and as it stands now, I can't afford a new PC so it's not worth the risk. All the research I've done does indicate one thing, that powersupplies are oversimplified to wattage, when really it's the amperage that you need to pay special attention too, I wish I knew that when having this thing built. I specifically got a Power supply that had "Expandability" options (though expandibility 2 years ago is like nothin now)
Luckily no, I don't pay my own electricity bill, I have the good fortune to live rent and utilities free as long as my GPA stays respectable, not that I'd mind paying it, it's only about 30 bucks, and that's with 2 LCD TV's, my PC, a 360 and Central air blasting at a comfy but not great 80 degrees.
The overall goal right now, is to just give my PC about a years worth of decent gaming (Sins included!) but with my next round of grants, I usually have about a few thou's left over because of the above, which I can use to buy a PC for "School" (it's not my fault if the crafty salesman sold me more than I needed for MS word!<wink,Wink>) which is when I can use most of the knowledge here.
Gonna be dishin out a bit o karma for all the well informed help. Even if it didn't answer my question, more details and knowledge about PC building (Especially these damn PSU's) is more than welcome ^^d
I assume that's the question you're referring to.
You can use the 6 pin PSU plug and one adapter (two adapters will not work). If the PSU cannot supply adequate power to your system, it won't boot.....
.....if you're lucky, that's all it'll do.
just to be clear, i wasnt nvidia bashing. i've got nothing against any company that puts out a good product, and the 4850 is an exceptional product. that said, had i the money to upgrade today, i'd snag a GTX 285.
i hope not upgrading the PSU works out. i'd suggest you try at least to split the two 4-pins you use on to different rails, if you can.
Like I said, use the GTS 250 when it releases real soon, don't try to get the 9800GTX+. The GTS is a rebrand of the card, but it's shorter, quieter, cooler, same performance, and here's the kicker... Only requires ONE PCI-E 6-pin connector!
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3523
And for those who keep saying you need a 750+ watt PSU, please, stop saying that. I'm a computer tech for a low-pro computer store, and we get tons of business (Because we're cheaper), and half of those customer's need a new PSU... Never have I once underestimated anything, even for a gaming machine. 750WA is a LOT of power, mainly since 90% of them on the market are 80+ certified, giving it a longer-lasting drive, since it's peak at 80+ is like, 825WA or some junk.
Your current 500wa with that system will be more than enough. However, it is recommended, since it's a rather older PSU, that you upgrade the unit eventually, when you have the money. If it goes bad, there's always a chance of taking the system with it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371007
or if you want something with a bit more kick,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005 would be more than you would ever need for a mainstream video card, like the 9800GTX+. Right now, keep in mind, it's not a requirement, but a recommended buy for the near future.
PS: If you didn't care for the ATI cards, I'd say wait until the RV740 card comes out (HD 4770 DDR5), as it'll be under 100 smax, and give you fairly close performance to the 4850/9800GTX cards, if not more. April.
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