I am curious of what people think here. A few things bother me so far. Vasari sb is exetremly advantageous over others. First of all they can rush with these in the begining and if one gets built in one of your wells early on while you are dealing with his fleet then that planet is screwed unless you decisevily win and have a large fleet. This is extremely difficult with a player on equal grounds as you. Mostly due to the fact that it can move and build away then destroy everything in well or anything that tries to even fly thru. You need ALOT of carriers and time to kill a basic sb and is not feasable when you are fighting a fleet.
Other thing that bothers me is the other sb totally suck at defending the planet. I have only played as advent so Im speaking for them but I have found no way to defend the planet from skilled players with a sb. The sb itself is extremely powerful fully upgraded but skilled players dont attack them head on. First thing they do is kill your planet. I know they are gonna fix the gov ability and soon I hope so my planets stop dying but it takes a slot and vas dont even need it. It sounds like to me they will still be able to kill the planet and its income too. You cant do this when a vas sb in well. If this is your hw then it is most of your income gone. It just doesnt seem right. All sb should have a way to threaten anything attacking a planet.
Maybe give sb a satelite weapon system when you place it within a certian range of the planet. It deploys sats in orbit that shoot at anything within bombing range.
Im not so upset about how offensive the vas sb is but for the love of sins make other sb as useful as vas at defending. Its ironic that in the beta everyone was worried how sb would defend inner worlds from being attacked(which they cant) and they cant even defend the planet they are stationed at.
PS FIX THE EMPIRE TREE FROM MOVING PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE
The Vasari starbase should not move, BUT it should have an UPGRADE allowing it to move. The upgrade should be researchable in the defense tree at level 4 (minimum), and it should be one of the starbase's upgrades (like weapons or enforced loyalty). Right now they are way to usefull (always comparing with Advent/TEC).
I also agree with you, MindsEye, TEC/Advent starbases are very powerful but they are way too limited at defending their own gravity well.
Having the starbase rotate around the planet would probably solve most problems.
Right now, Vasari have a huge advantage over TEC/Advent. Even torpedo cruisers are easy picking for a movable Vasari starbase, they are always my first target.
Vasary players dont have an anti-structure cruiser (big mistake IC), they have to use their own starbase to do the job (at least thats what I think the developpers were thinking),
so can someone explain to me how a Vasari player can succefully build and upgrade one of his starbase inside another Vasary controlled gravity well which already has a starbase moving towards the other (not fully constructed) starbase???
The fully constructed starbase will EASELY take care of an unfinished starbase, and even if the starbase is fully constrcuted, chances are the starbase which was already present in the gravity well will have a few upgrades already!!!
Like I said before, moving starbases are a BAD idea. Having the Vasari one move is "acceptable" but only if research is required!!!
I would love to see all Starbases have the ability to move.
Basically all have a research that allows movement. First research make the base move, but rediculously slow (I am talking watching paint dry slow). This will allow repositioning of your starbase to a new local should your defensive needs change. I have had on more than one occasion had to scrap a starbase jsut to rebuild it on the other side of a gravity well.
Now then, the Vasari would have a second level of research on it that would bring it up to the speed it is at now.
And for the sake of everyone, Vasari need a good anti-building thingy....not using another starbase.
I would like to see a research that changes a specific ship (a transporter perhaps) into a different type....EX: By doing a specific research you can spend 1,000 credits, 100 metal, 100 crystal to mount a huge frickin laser on its hood.
Maybe not that silly, but you know what I mean.
Hell
No thanks, as an advent player I like my SB to stay put. I tried playing as Vasari and it gets really annoying when it leaves the surrounding turrets and regen/repair bays to go hunt for enemies.
Perhaps using the fleet management tools would eliminate that problem? The other SB would be too slow to do anything with unless you wanted to strategically re-position them.
Rebuilding repair buildings and hangars as an Advent is a hell of a lot cheaper than rebuilding a fully upgraded starbase.
Simple fix to your "problem".......Hold Position.
It would not be too hard to implement it.
What is the problem here? Unfinished starbase is extremely easy to kill. If you have good intelligence you would know what he is up to, he can't cloak the colony frigate heading for your system. Also I don't know who has a lot of credits to throw on a starbase early on. I may just let him have that planet hoping he will keep pouring credits into it, while I double my fleet size and kill all his planets.
Main prob is balance. Vas can be awesome at offense and defense but the others cant defend the planet they are at.They are not as easy to kill as you are saying. Like i said I dont mind vas being ahead at offense but the others should defend as well at least.
MindsEye, once their 'foreign government' powers are fixed, then yes they can defend the planet. With those broken it is a little hard, but they still represent a powerful force which the enemy will find (very) difficult to suppress.
You misunderstand. The gov does not defend the planet. The planet will still die and a terran takes 5 min to repopulate. The vas can bring full weapons to bear on anything attacking the planet. I dont see how it would be game breaking/ changing to allow the others to defend the planet as well since all they can do is defend anyway. Please explain why this is such a bad idea and would make the game unbalanced in anyway. Also explain to me why it is fair that vas can attack on offense and defend better then the others and that is fair too.
I'm not sure about solving all the problems, but that is a really interesting idea to me, and is perfectly reasonable, seeing as we do it today with our satellites. Having building move on an orbit in their gravity well... slowly, of course, and perhaps costing some resources... That's be pretty cool to see. Of course then comes the problem of the gravity well being represented in a 2-d space... Eh, just some thoughts.
Vasari have the moving starbase because they don't have an antistructure ship. Its weapons are more effective at destroying structures than the other starbases. I honestly like the uniqueness of it, applying it to the other starbases wouldn't make sense and would make the moving vasari siege platform pointless.
I like it the way it is.
"The gov does not defend the planet." Of course it doesn't, once it's fixed itll keep you from losing it, isn't that enough? If you have problems defending a grav well with a space station, you might need to rethink how you organize or plan your defenses.
Auxiliary Government does not prevent the enemy from bombarding the planet to zero income which is just as bad as losing the planet. I'm not overly excited about that upgrade whether it works or not.
As an attacking player, I have completely ignored TEC and Advent Starbases in MP and bombarded the planets and even colonized them with the enemy Starbase still sitting there and doing nothing. To me those starbases seemed like a waste of resources and I won because I spent mine on fleet. Vasari base is the only one you are forced to fight, otherwise it just destroys everything you build.
And I think the starbase constructors shouldn't disappear when you start building so that you could still destroy them to halt the construction. It feels a little cheap jumping a vasari colony ship in and then just clicking it into a starbase in construction that takes a lot of firepower to destroy. A few fighter squadrons from orbital hangars should be assurance enough that no one just jumps in and casually builds a huge starbase.
The other SB's don't have to move. but an ability to move it to another position would be nice.
It could be something like:
TEC:
-Weapons disabled while moving
-moving done with construction frigates.
Advent:
-high AM, high cooldown Teleport skill
-moving with construction frigates.
Another idea:
-give the powerful passive abilities that target the whole gravity well (i.e. increase repair and meteor range )
Advent do not need the skill that prevents planets from being colonized, because the have the 2nd meteor skill (requires AM but kills planets as soon as they are colonized).
Being able to destroy the construction of a starbase would be... pardon me, but simply a bad choice. The offensive application of vasari starbases would vanish.
And I always make the enemy come to my defenses, one way or another. Mine fields, my own fleet, anything. Though in the end, even with a starbase, you still need a mobile fleet. If you were able to bypass his starbase and defenses without being harassed by anything, then his placement of the starbase was poor. Namely, if you place them close to your logistics structures, it forces you to destroy the starbase even if you've colonized the planet, in order to make way for your own logistic slots.
Silfarion it is impossible to defend a planet. They dont have the weapons range and turrets will not work. Making them move slowly will not work. They dont need to move just defend the planet somehow thats all. It does not matter where you place it the planet will still be bombed.
Then have fighters destroy the siege frigates before they can even get in range?
The SBs are NOT unbalanced. If you use your head you can defend against Vassari SBs. If you're attacking as Vasari and you're afraid your SB is going to get destroyed before it's built (in an enemy Vasari well) then don't attack. Sit back, relax, and try a new tactic. Send in 100 destructers and blow their planet up. Go around the planet - attack from another side (use phase gates from the kostra canon, and a distraction at the other side). Vasari are NOT unbeatable, just try some new tactics and spend less time complaining about your failing tactics on the forums. (That's not directed at anyone, just a general comment.)
Oh, and 4 SBs at Stars is AWESOME. I play multi-star maps all the time now - 4 Advent SBs w/ upgraded culture engines.... oooooooooohhh yeah.
I'm sorry but these witch hunts to "balance" the game are only going to result in nearly destroying all sense of uniqueness for the races and the game as a whole. Most of the abilities of each race are predicated on the Lore (limited as it is) of Sins. I'm in complete agreement with Silfarion, work on organizing all of your logistic structures near the star base so they are under its veil of protection and also invest in a decent amount of strikecraft (through the SB and hangers) to help with seige ships that would allude your static defenses. You can also use mine fields to funnel fleets to your starbase. I think both the mobility of the Vasari's star base and the flexibility of their mine laying abilities is counter balanced very nicely with the omission of any sort anti-structure cruiser. Yes, Vasari could jump in and start building a star base in your gravity well while you're fighting to bolster their forces, but it's fragile state with barily more health than a Capital ship it wouldn't last very long under fire.
I thought all this screaming about "Mommy mommy! Johnny gets a moving starbase! I want a moving starbase too!" was over after beta. Suppose I was wrong.
So funny, there is one thread right now from a guy who seems to be well-regarded on the forums, who is claiming that it is the Advent starbase that is overpowered (and associated defenses), not the Vasari starbase.
I completly agree. Merely using some micro management in where you place your SB and structures is now a prat of the game that adds depth. While the moving Vasari SB is nice, the fact that all you need to do to avoid it is either split your fleet into smaller squads when attacking, or micro your fleet to stay away from the SB (yes it moves, but SLOWLY. People spam strikecraft enough, just use them and keep the carriers moving). And with the other AB, placing them near all structures automaticly protects them so that even if you lose the planet, they still have a good chance of surviving, and if you can retake the planet, the money saved on not having to replace the structures helps. on top of that, if you become a target of pirates, if all your structures are near the structures, pirates will be able to do little before they themselves are destroyed. Finally, if you do a little bit of reasearch to where to biuld a SB, you'll find that most of the time, ship jump into a system a the same spots. So, if you know where they will usually jump in......you can not only use mines, but have it so that they will be forced to deal with a SB.
As for the Vasari jumping in and building, while in construction, the SB is weak enough and takes long enough to build that only a few squads of bombers (5 or 6 or so) are needed to attack it in order to destroy it, or even weaken it enough. Even if it is built, it will be in a weakened state so that it will be easy to destroy it, making a huge waste of resources for whom ever built it.
Maybe I wasn't precise enough in my earlier post, what I meant to say is that the HARD counter to an enemy starbase is Torpedo Cruiser for TEC, Adjudicator for Advent & ......STARBASE for Vasari.
If I play Vasari and I want to DESTROY an enemy VASARI starbase (not avoid it/not attacking another system/not bypassing it), my HARD COUNTER is building one of my own starbase in the enemy gravity well, right?
So how can someone do that if the enemy VASARI starbase starts moving towards my own starbase the moment I start constructing it?
If Vasari don't have a HARD counter to assaulting other starbases (especially Vasari ones) then the game becomes unbalance because every unit/structure should have a HARD counter.
Everyone knows starbases can be taken down with bombers, but bombers are not the real counter to starbases, TEC have one & so do the Advent (to a lesser degree), but the Vasari counter doesn't work. Vasari is missing an anti-structure cruiser.
The devs wanted to make each race play/feel differently, to give them a uniqueness, I am all for that, but not at the price of balance, say what you will; Vasari starbases are a lot more USEFULL when compared to TEC/Advent,
and with a lack of a proper counter for Vasari vs. starbases, the game seems to be missing something!!!
That is why I recommended having a RESEARCH tech + an individual UPGRADE for Vasari starbases. This would allow Vasari starbases to move, so the uniqueness is still there, but now it would cost Vasari time & ressources to actually make their own starbases move, making them a little bit less useful then they are right now! That would not change the fact that Vasari is missing an anti-structure cruiser, but it would help a bit in making the game more balance.
Uhm, hm. If you can't attack his starbase, and he can't attack yours, I'd called that pretty balanced, wouldn't you? You can't beat a starbase with another starbase. You "need" an attacking fleet. Focus firing, management, it comes down to who controls the stronger fleet the best. If his starbase moves, use that to take it away from the static defenses, focus fire it and destroy it. Or bypass it altogether if you can.
Ok I am 100% sure that the movement of sb are not gonna change and I am not askin for them too. Vas is only one who can move period. The only balance issue I was talking about is the ability to defend the planet. Building sc slots wont work. Flak are cheap and all fleets have carriers. Human players with brains will not send 4 or 5 seige frigs by themself to get blowed up by ur sc. I am speaking for mp. Mines only delay. When you are on the defense your fleet isnt strong enough to defeat ur opponents and thus even with your fleet you cant stop the bombardment. His level 6 egg will level your planet and steal money while his forces deal with any sc(or any other cap). The uniqueness of the races is that vas are more of offense but as it is now they defend better and play offense better. So really there is no uniqueness cause they have best of both worlds. Advent and tec should have at least = to or a bit better defense.
You serious MindsEye? You know what I did yesterday with TEC? I killed 85 illuminators and a capship with final protocol. I don't think there is any problem with TEC there. What about Advent? Well let's see meteor is only the best starbase ability (that doesn't result in your starbase blowing up). Best thing about is that msot of the things it will hit will be at their minimum mitigation, so they will take almost full damage.
And Vasari not defensive? They have probably best mines, and to top that off the best upgrade to the regular turret of all 3 races. The missile platform with Disruptor Nanites totally owns a cap ship. Why? Because they can't regen antimatter! No antimatter for planet sucking, no antimatter for razeplanet. Upgrade planet HP and he will be there for 20 minutes.
i concur.. vasari starbases have an extreme advantage of being moveable, the defenses of all race on their own are perfect, TEC's greatly upgradeable gaus turrets, advent's strategical placed beam turrets with synergy upgrades vasari with disruptor nanites
TEC starbase, perfect
Advent starbase, perfect
Vasari starbase, being a moving unit removes any chance to succesfully destroy a vasari planet protected by an upgraded starbase extreme firepower AND the ability to get anywhere in the grav-well. a huge fleet will not be able to kil the orkulus without serious losses, and using orgov's to kil it from long range wont work either.. it'll simply go straight for the orgov's
as a possible solution the vasari starbase should have significantly reduced attack/health, to compensate for its mobility... with reduced attack/health it wont be able to hold of as much as other starbases, but it can move anywhere it wants
as a second possibility.. removing the mobility from the orkulus, either permanently or as an upgrade"tech 4 minimum"
ofcourse given that vasari do not have anti-structure cruisers they DO have mine-laying cruisers, wich is without question far more valuable then anti-structure ships (laying mines inside an enemy fleet DOES hurt...)
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