Ill put it simply , Sins needs this unit.
Heavy Class Armour , Very Heavy Class Weapons
What it entails..
- This unit would be vulnerable to Light Frigates
- This unit however would be effective against Structures and Heavy Cruisers
Lets call this unit a Destroyer...
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8098/piczs7.jpg
No. HC are already countered by bombers and other HCs. Structures are countered by bombers and anti-structure cruisers/starbases(V).
Yes, heavy cruiser can only be countered by spamming even more HCs which is stupid.
I think the destroyer class is BRILLIANT, get Ironclad's attention! Destroyers should be like mini-cap battleships intended for large-mid sized ship to shi combat!
+10!
HCs are allredy nearly redundant, cannonfodder/ first line.
I rarely build more than 15 of them for the sole reason that carriers do everything far beter than HC's.
The way i see it, only use for HC's in modern sins is 20-30 minutes in game, when you get your second population upgrade, and get out 15 odd HC's as a meat wall.
Carriers, in current form are superior over all other units as a damage dealers and survivable combat units.
Cruisers are the "cheap" expandable first wave, or a close range guards for your capital ships.
The fact that carriers can deliver payloads from far and escape. Not to mention, if you kill carrier, it takes time before the squads it commands dies.
What we need is... well, nothing. The carriers are the backbone of any competetible fleet in sins today. And favorable capitalships are thous, who got useful anti strikecraft abilities. To have a HC heavy fleet is to face defeat against competent carrier abuser.
The thing we need to do is to diversify our existing units more. Right now it is possible to counter Light frigs with carriers way too easy. And going LF heavy content just because of carrier baisikly serves as enemy capships levelgrind.
I dont even bother to use LRF/illus/assilants in sins anymore. Only reason to use them is if you are under risk of getting rushed before you can get carriers/hoshikos out.
But siddy your basing this of imba
Im basing it off if carriers were balanced, or LFs could counter them properly
Bombers should fill that gap.
I think it comes down to Flak's inability to keep the Fighters under control. Or rather the problem is that Flak is only good at killing a unit that can be rebuilt for free, hence building a lot of Flak is not very appealing and Fighters get abused freely. And Bombers can never exist while people spam Fighters.
If Strikecraft would cost resources to rebuild Flak would be useful. And then we could actually use Bombers too.
Well, lets first balance what we got, then add new...
LF's are never going to be useful as long they die to 2 most spammed unit in game AND the units they were designed to countter.
HC's dont need counter, as they are end game unit, and cant realy do that well in HC only mass against carrier air superiority.
Hence HC arent problems, and never were.
Hmm... maybe an idea for the 2nd or 3rd expansion? Call it something violent and aggressive and introduce new units and methods of attack, including the Destroyer.
One problem though... Capitals are already battleships, battlecruisers and destroyers, so naming might be an issue.
I'd like more planet-killing options and stuff like that. Plus, the offensive focus of that expansion is bound to speed up the game considerably.
Yeah I find it funny that you want an HC coutner, when HC is hard as hell to use effectively now a days. Only time HC is really good is if someone traight up rushes you with LRMs and you went all aount tech for HC. But even so you could have gotten carrier for 2 less labs and still killed the lrms, and probably faster.
I don't know what to say about HCs but they need something.
+1 P5yy thread torpedoet.
endgame battles are about squadrons and cap-ship super abilities.
you'll get hammered by 10 bomber squadrons or you'll get hammered by a missile barrage. you worry about countering those. get fighter squadrons to counter bombers. get a cap or cruiser that can interrupt/stun to counter missile barrage (or whatever similar super ability you need to counter). heavy cruisers really don't get involved in any of this and thus don't need an explicit counter (though bomber squads are already the counter for them).
heavies work great if you have intense fighter escorts for them, especially Kodiaks since they can intercept into enemy carriers. they also work great if you've blatantly out-teched your opponent and he's trying to fight you with an LRF based fleet. all of this begs the question though: if you have enough fighter escorts to keep heavies alive against enemy bombers, why did you build the heavies instead of just adding some bomber squads?
Because bombers only counter very heavy armour. HCs counter almost everything.
Yeah they are kidna like bricks. You add some for flavor I guess. They can kill enemy carriers, so at least that's good. But you need fighters or your opponent will swap to 100% bombers and straight up own you. And they do decent job vs lrms/flak/cobalts.
i see it going down one of three ways.
a) your opponent doesn't have many squadrons. his fleet is mainly LRF's and Heavies.
- in this scenario your carriers counter BOTH his main units, fighters counter LRF and bombers counter Heavies.
b ) your opponent has lots of squadrons.
- you have no choice but use fighters and/or flaks or else his squads will rip apart your fleet. heavies will fall easily to his bomber squads.
c) your opponent is using a smallish number of squadrons, mostly fighters.
- this is main situation where Heavies become actually useful.
its scenario C that i was talking about in my other post. in that scenario you basically have unconstested squadron dominance. if thats the case i'm not sure if you actually do get better results with Heavies then you would by just adding more carriers with bombers. the bombers are equally good against Caps and better against Heavies and Structures. you've already got the fighters to mop up his light armor stuff (LRF and support cruisers) so what's left that Heavy Cruisers actually have the advantage against? Light Frigs? Flaks? not a big concern in my opinion.
My point was that Heavies counter more units then bombers do.
Therefore you can't use bombers in every situation that you could use bombers.
Support cruisers are not countered by fighters, they have heavy armour, not light armour.
If you get bombers then you have to sacrifice space for fighters and fighters are better in more situations then bombers.
Heavies also act as a valuable meat shield, especially as Vasari.
I only get bombers when I got tons of fighters, enough to hold off enemy fighters.
the balance has been made in the circle of "carrier < LF < LRF < carrier". likewise "carriers < LF < HC < carriers" but i dont like that HC and LF dont have a mutual circle. for example "LF/LRF < HC < hypothetical unit < LF or LRF"
i think the key to this unit would be effecivness against and suseptability to carriers, im not sure what id like the most atm id have to play around with the idea
i think this unit would be the cherry on the top of my proverbial "micro" sundae. further more i belive it would further magnify the importance of a strong econamy because i can often beat a stronger econ soley because the let my fleet "composition" get radically out of control while building econ and no matter what they though at me crummbles. this new unit i think will help countering drasticlly broken fleet compositions which i dont have time to go in depth into now but maybe another time.
and siddys right carriers are pretty damn broken, but not AS bad as he tends to represent.
I think Destroyers should have two weapons. One a main gun that can punch threw heavy armor and a lighter anti strike craft gun. Hell maybe give it the ability to attack planets so it can replace the useless siege frigates late game. To sum it up a powerful late game ship with firepower only a capital ship can outmatch. Lower armor then a heavy cruiser but more health and a higher cost.
edit. About the anti strike craft weapons. This would help counter mass strike craft. The main weapon would also be highly effective towards carriers
Replace "hypothetical unit" with "carriers" and you have the same circle as mentioned earlier (with added LRF).
I want an Destroyer Class unit. It could soft counter carrier spam with Flak, and counter HCs while losing to (mass) LRF spam, and just slighty lose to capital ships.
Way I see it,
LRFs > LFs
Carriers/SC > LRFs
HCs > LRFs
Carriers = Destroyers > HCs
(mass) LRFs > Capital Ships > Destroyers > HCs
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
