The thinking behind uses of the starbase are as follows:
Vasari bases are for area defense and economic boostage and importantly can be used as offensive weapons - jumping in an escort fleet to guard the starbase as it is constructed at the edge of the well, then leisurely strolling along and crushing everything in its path (and with frontal shields, that includes other starbases).
TEC Argonevs are for point defense and establishing forward bases. They can't move so their use in offense is approximately zero (not necessarily a bad thing as they have other strategic uses).
Advent Transcencias are for (slightly larger) point defense and culture; they're a bit better at dominating no-man's-land areas like suns and roids than Argonevs but dont have as much straight-up military or industrial application.
On paper these dynamics work great, but in practice they have an unintended side effect: because Vasari bases can move to respond to a threat from any direction, they are much more effective for defense and destroying enemy fleets. TEC and Advent are forced to build their bases in as annoying a spot as possible, then buy offplanet government upgrades and spread other defenses all over. The enemy fleet jumps in, toasts everything but the base, then attacks the base on its own sweet time.
In other words, the mobility of the Vasari base means the Vasari bases are massively superior to their analogs. This can be balanced by
a) Giving the stationary bases massively extended range (not a good option because range any further than it currently is would make the base devastatingly OP).
Giving the bases engines. They should not be as fast as the Vasari base - in fact moving less than half that speed would still serve the purpose. This simply gives the player the flexibility to move the base to the place it can be most strategically effective while still being forced to think because it takes awhile to drag the base over there.
The designers are reasonably concerned that giving Argonevs and Transcencias mobility would give them the capacity to function as offensive weapons. But considering the ponderously slow speed of those bases, their application in an enemy well would be very limited. If this is still a concern, it shouldn't be difficult to add a stipulation that Argonevs and Transcencias cannot be built in grav wells controlled by enemies.
Players should be able to build a starbase, upgrade it up the wazoo, and have a solid confidence that the well it occupies is safe from any but very concerted attacks. Vasari players can do this. TEC and Advent players can't. Giving those players very slow engines would fix this.
PS. Love the Beta 2 changes ... weapon banks and mine balances make me happy. : )
Just so you, dev have shot down the idea for the other bases moving.
i dont know why they cant just be in a manipulative orbit...set distance from the planet at center of grav well, but able to move in a circular fashion to any side it chooses...
B/c that sounds complicated to code. Idk, im not a coder. I think they are fine the way they are. I just requires you to use other defensive things plus the starbase to compensate for lack of moment.
^I don't see coding a structure to orbit and attack being much different to coding any other ship to attack-move.
I'd welcome the ability to move a starbase manually, or have it move to an optimum position automatically. If I've placed a starbase to defend against pirate attacks and I subsequently remove that threat, that starbase is pretty much useless to me - I can't repurpose it (reassign from a tactical structure to a logistical one) or use it to cover phase lanes in the opposite side of the gravity well (where I'd now prefer it to be as that's where the threat is).
I never liked to play the Vasari but with thier star bases being the only to move they are the only race i play now.
Thier bases moving in the well is just to huge a edge.
Why not make a tech that players have to research to be able to move thier bases in the well.
I would have to agree i like the idea of all the bases being able to move even if it is at a slower speed or having to research tech's first.
That is a great idea!
I am wondering why TEC & Advent have anti-structure ships and the Vasari dont,
I know that the Vas starbase is considered an anti structure weapon, but I would like to be able to create a FLEET of ships to raid and destroy enemy structures, move in kill all, move out again without having to build a starbase (a defensive intallation design to protect planetary bodies, starbases are NOT offensive weapons, it should be impossible to build one inside an enemy control territory!!!!!!)
Sigh, IC has shot down the idea of moving bases for TEC and Advent. If need I can provide the like the the post. Moving starbase does not fit in to the lore for TEC and Advent. So, let all move past it. Thanks.
The humans aren't that advanced. Do it the way Weber would - give them fragile tow boats making movement out of combat a possibility (a slow one) but in combat an impossibility.
If you want a moving starbase, play Vasari.
Jeez Ue_Carbon, you got a stick up your butt? All these people are doing in making suggestions. If anything, you must pay or use antimatter to move them...as well as upgrading...
Some people(like me) do not like to play as vasari.Therefore giving one race huge advantages(like the egg) makes the game not nearly as fun. I have not played the beta 2 but only a few times(as it minidumps even with graphics all the way down) and 1 mp that md so I dont know how effective this moving sb is but when I think about it it sounds like a huge advantage. For one thing when enemy sieges a well with a sb that cannot move then they can kill it solely with strike by sitting back at the edge whereas you cant do this with a moving sb. Now maybe your fleet can outrun it and you can still use fighters but that will be much harder if the well has alot of mines. Also the stationary sb will not be able to guard the entire planet so fleet can jump in use strikecraft fly around to other side of planet and start bombing. So they are killing 2 birds with one stone. Vasari can also use their sw as a gate and jump their fleet past all your sb anyway. They are also the best rusher. If you are 1-2 jumps from a skilled player and you are not vas you will most likely lose.
I dont think people understand the true concept for Entrenchment, maybe I have it wrong. IMO, starbase are not the end all be all many people want. I do want them to hard to defeat but not impossible WITH support. No starbase should be able to solo any fleet worth its salt. But with proper supporting fleet and defensive structure, and even some well placed mines. A starbase should be a task to defeat.
So Im sorry if it seems Im being a bit ass like. Its nothing personal against the OP or any other persons suggestions. Im was just pointing out that IC had deemed moving starbases a no go for Advent and TEC. And like he/she are allow their suggestions, these are mine. I mean nothing negative against anyone.
The egg is a fine ship, but in no way is it a huge advantage. Some say the advent mothership is the best - it is certainly a better colonizer. Some say the TEC Dreadnaught is the best. I play vasari, but for an opening colonizer ship, I'd much rather have the advent mothership. In fact, out of all the vasari cap ships, I'd rather open with something else besides the egg, but I rarely do because a colonizer is important in the early game.
Vasari don't get a torpedo cruiser. Doesn't a torpedo cruiser sound like a huge advantage?
Come on - they get a phase stabilizer node. That's their unique tech. It totally fits in with their entire theme. Advent get evangelism nodes on their starbase, TEC gets repair docs, factories, etc. What's the big deal? Vasari already have phase stabilizers anyway. The fact that you can build them on a starbase adds nothing new except that vasari can now have a phase stabilizer in an asteroid field or worm hole or something. Similary, TEC can have factories, repair docs, etc. in such areas, and Advent can have propaganda centers.
So, rather than letting each race have their own huge advantage, you'd prefer that no race had any significant advantage over any other race in any area of the game? That sounds boring to me. Going that direction the Advent shouldn't have the tactical advantage of being able to upgrade tactical slots everywhere via tech and TEC not the advantage of being able to upgrade logistics slots everywhere with tech, and yet, their very different focuses and being consistently strong within their focus is what makes all three factions interesting to play.
This is very nicely continued in Entrenchment.
The Vasari gets a bad-arse mobile close combat Starbase with a very heavy focus on defensive abilities for its own use and the ability to use another core Vasari playstyle: the phase gate. It should be noted that this does not automatically make it easy to bring forces into somebody elses rear area, nor does it strictly speaking bring an ability to the Vasari that they did not already have - you need to get there with a migrator and finish building and upgrading a Starbase, and what you can accomplish when you have done that is exactly the same as you'd have done by flying a level 6 Marauder there instead of the migrator (apart from not needing to spend the time building and upgrading). Economically, the Starbase provides a colonists-in-space bonus for more credits, useful in all non-frontline systems. On the other hand, the starbase brings nothing to help a friendly fleet in the area - it is a combat juggernaut, everybody else can look out for themselves. Now, Entrenchment is not just about the Starbases but also the other defensive installations, and the extra abilities to their old defensive systems are rather meh: the hangar's get to immobilize strike craft and their phase missile launchers get to halt the hull/shield/antimatter regeneration of their targets - again, this is very much in line with the Vasari ideas, but most people would probably prefer something like the TEC upgrades - and that's fair enough.
Advent gets superior civilian starbases via higher allegiance (mimicking their Allure of the Unity tech and playing to what is already a strength of theirs - getting more resources out of each individual planet than anybody else), and can throw even more squadrons around in a gravity well than they are used to (one of the Advent focuses). Their Starbase might, in some cases, make sense to be used as far away from the expected entry point of hostile fleets as a sniper starbase - max squadrons and the ability to fling meteors at fleets as they approach may not be as effective at defending planets, but for survival, damagedealing, and making sure that no torpedo boats get into range of the starbase itself it probably cannot be beaten. On the other hand, their standard defenses get a considerable boost: Hangar platforms capable of shielding nearby buildings and beam weapon platforms gaining in strength and survivability when clumped together. This plays very well with their current ability to get up to ten more tactical points than anybody else and heavy focus on squadrons and shielding. One of those cases where placing the starbase behind normal defenses and hugging the planet would make sense - you tell me.
TEC Starbases give the TEC a genuinely new option: the ability to pump out frigates and cruisers on the spot even in neutral or hostile systems. This plays to the TEC strength - production. Likewise, their Starbase Docking Boom module is pure fleet support of the type that TEC lives on - more antimatter, more time to live for the heavily armoured fleets. While a Vasari Starbase might be individually more powerful than a TEC one, if you add an equivalent fleet to either of them the odds are likely to even out. The ability to blow itself up may not seem like much, but let us see how that plays out in practice. The extra abilities to TEC's old defenses are very substantial: Hangars now shoot down strike craft and Gauss Cannons are upgraded to be able to deal both with longer range threats and multiple close range threats.
For a breakdown of mines - somebody else must answer; I have very little experience with them yet.
Focusing solely on one aspect of the defensive changes, to whit, Vasari having moving Starbases, to the game in analysing future gameplay seems a wee bit narrowminded.
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The one thing I guess we can all pretty much agree on is that it would be very, very, much appreciated if we could decommision Starbase upgrades selectively, thus allowing us over time to change the function of a Starbase without having to dismantle it entirely and rebuild from scratch. The Starbase that once defended your frontier could be retrofitted to an economic base once it is no longer relevant due to an advancing front; the Starbase that once was based on short range weaponry to have them ripped out and replaced with hangar bays.
Just to point out the Argonev self destruct is absolutely devastating. If a fleet is attacking a TEC starbase head on and the sb owner decides to blow it up, that fleet is dead. No time to react, no way to know if it has the ability. Just instant mass death and some fireworks. At lvl 2 only Capitol ships and squadrons will be left.
You know, Im glad you said this. This is what Ive been trying to tell people with very little results. Im am glad to see Im not the only one who see a bigger picture beyond mines and starbases. Im sure there are other just not as vocal as some of us.
To bad they are not listening in this case. As it seems there is still a call for all bases to move.
The Vasari are my least favorite of the 3 races but I am sticking 100% with them now in beta 2 cause of the huge advantage thier bases movin.
That's a crying shame, Matthew, when you could be playing your favourite race instead and be using your valuable experience to support reporting the issues it has through your experiences.
After all, the beta period is ultimately about testing the game, not about playing the race you think is most powerful.
Why not bring the mountain to Mahamid; Tractor beams. If Star Bases had a tractor beam upgrade (full gravity well range), they could pull the ship(s) to them. Level 1 tractor beams can grab scouts/frigates; lvl 2 cruisers; lvl 3 cap ships. Solves everything right there, and, puts in a classic sci-fi technology missing from the game. Best of all, Star bases don't have to move around like an obese person on one of those supermarket scooters to make up for game balance. . .
Obviously, scouts would be immune after the upgrade that lets them move through most anything.
Btw, how many karma DO I need to get the SoaSE dishwear set?
Some good input. Excellent post Peter Ebbesen; you make a few points I hadn't thought of and, I will confess, slightly dampen my enthusiasm for moving starbases. But do not remove it, for reasons I'll go into in a second.
-Ue_Carbon, thanks for your repeated emphatic reminders. : ) I realize ICO has heard this debate before and ruled against my position, but we are in a beta and it's our job to talk about percieved weaknesses in the game design. The devs wanted to balance TEC/Advent bases in other ways - ways which are very well described by Peter's post. But I submit that they did not balance enough.
Here's the basic issue (at the risk of oversimplifying):
1) When Varari build a star base, they can cover an entire well, possibly with minimal additional defenses if they upgrade. TEC and Advent must spend the same amount of money to get a base that has some (admittedly very useful) abilities that really play to their strengths, BUT they are also forced to build defenses and mines much more aggressively than Vasari. The discrepancy between what a Varari player has to spend to get fleet-replacing defenses and what the other two factions have to spend is not compensated for by the stationary base's cool noncombat abilities. From a defensive standpoint, a stationary base is just a cluster of defenses that may, if upgraded, have to be destroyed before you bomb the planet to bits.
Vasari bases can respond to threats anywhere in the well, making their defensive application greater than that of the stationary bases by several factors.
Aspauldarkside pointed out and may of us have experienced firsthand, building a starbase to defend against attacks from phase lane 1 and then colonizing up phase lane 1 and wishing the base were covering phase lane 2 is an all-too-common and very frustrating experience. All those combat upgrades become nearly useless on a stationary base, but Vasari can just reposition and keep reaping rewards.
Vasari bases should absolutely move faster than their analogs and have the offensive/flexible dynamic going on. I'm simply arguing that the Argonevs and Transcencias should have SOME engine on them to keep them from going obsolete when the geopolitical situation changes. Let it take five minutes for them to move across the well if need be, but please let them move.
I'm not looking for a moving starbase. I'm looking for a balanced game. I'm not the only Advent player who is now playing Vasari kicking and screaming because they're the only ones with moving bases. I love everything about the Transencias and wish I could use them but they just can't price compete with something mobile for the same price - not even with large hangars and meteor attacks.
Much love all around.
I'm not looking for a moving starbase. I'm looking for a balanced game.
Well said OW Athena!!! Giving one of the factions a big advantage like that and the game becomes unbalance. Thats why the other 2 races should have the option to UPGRADE their starbases, rebalancing the game, or stardock needs to come up with something special for the other 2 races. Everyone understand the need for each race to be different, but not at the cost of unbalancing the game.
I wish you could dismantle/destroy/scrap the additions to a starbase just like you can do with ships or orbital structures. Lets say (and like written above, happens to most all of us) you build a maxed out defensive starbase; the front changes and moves forward a planet or two. That starbase is a bit useless, or it "feels" like a huge waist of money. But, if you could scrap many of the upgrades, you can then recoup some of your investment and even put it into other upgrades if you want (for one example, as TEC you could put in Trade Ports ect).
Yes, your right about the balance issue. 1000%. My only issues is not to fix the issue by making the starbases the same. Just b/c Varsari can move doesnt mean TEC and Advent should too. That is my main point. I believe that starbases should vastly be different from one another. And yes, unforturnaly the Varsari do win the best starbase for the cost award. Maybe to compensate for this mobility we should reduce its DPS against non structures. Lower the cost for both the Advent and TEC starbases. Or any other idea like such. While I do agree, if you gave all starbases the ability to move it would be a quick fix. But that all it would be I think, just a quick fix. Maybe we are not looking enough beyond the simplest and cheapest fix. While I can speak for all, I dont we fully pushed other viable options before we choose the quick fix.
Well consider this please:
Here you are, TEC player with that nice juicy planet. You seek to defend it. What do you do?
Usualy, one would put up a shield generator. Then guard it with turrets (as they suddenly were made useful), repair bays and hangars. Even mines if youre generous. Now, you put a station into that. A big honking Piece of solid Tank. A piece of solid honking Tank that will Restore anti matter to the rapair bays forever, a base that will start murdering any ship that dares attack the shild generator and a base that prevents the planet from ever seeing enemy hands.
Oh, and it will hurt ppl if they jump away.
A Planetary Shield increases the time it takes to succesfully rape a colony quite a bit. Paired with a station that will punish you even if you succed.
If you ask me, the whole raiding idea just got seriously unatractive.
If there EVER was ANY change to be made oncerning Station balance, i suggest TEC/Advent Stations to give a number of bonus TAC slots for the grav well they are stationed too.
Because it would help you force your ops hand.
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