This is mostly from multiplayer point of view but mp also speaks volumes about cap balance. Caps get very little use beyond the first one you get for free. Partly because a lvl 1 cap just isn't cost effective compared to frigates or cruisers but also because multiple caps nerf eachother by sharing XP. Generally it's better to have one lvl 6 cap + more fleet than 2 lvl 3 caps.
First I would like to suggest a smaller XP penalty for using multiple capitals in one fleet - a new 20% XP penalty for each cap beyond the first. Caps would get XP as follows:
2 caps 80% XP
3 caps 64% XP
4 caps 51% XP
5 caps 41% XP
6 caps 33% XP etc..
Now onto individual cap ships. Comments most welcome, Vasari especially.
Marza Dreadnought - Best TEC capship because of far superior DPS to everything and Missile Barrage being by far the most powerful ability in the game. Destroys fleets like no other cap and planets on the side. I'd suggest a target cap for Missile Barrage.
Akkan Battlecruiser - Being weaker than Advent and Vasari colonizers make it a less appealing choice. Giving a free extractor with lvl 1 colonize would probably be a good thing for the Akkan. Ion bolt could last a little longer.
Kol Battleship - Abilities are fine, would probably get picked if DPS was closer to Marza, frontal especially. The four frontal laser beams have less DPS than a cobalt. It looks powerful but really isn't as the DPS spreads out so much.
Sova Carrier - Don't see these anymore. Haven't tried them.
Dunov Battlecruiser - useful support cap, all good abilities.
Jarrasul Evacuator - Almost the only Vasari cap ever seen online. Nano Disassembler and Drain Planet are two extremely powerful abilities that would be good selling points of any battleship or siege cap. Put them on a colonizer and you get three caps in one.
Skirantra Carrier - don't see them used. Seemed very fragile last time I tried one.
Kortul Devastator - ??
Vulkoras Desolator - Good at siege but not needed as lvl 6 Evacuator does it better. Disintegration is also inferior to the Egg's Nano Disassembler in spite of being a lvl 6 ability, the reason being high cost, long cooldown and damage being mitigated by shields. The Evacuator's similar but superior abilities make this ship obsolete. Phase Missile Swarm has been reported to not actually shoot phase missiles.
Antorak Marauder - ??
Revelation Battlecruiser - Really weak survivability. Gets shamefully owned by neutral militia in the beginning. Reverie and Clairvoyance are good abilities but the other two aren't. Has someone ever even used Guidance? Provoke Hysteria isn't the ultimate planet killer in spite of being a lvl 6 siege ability. Sure a lvl 6 Revelation can quickly hurt a maxed out planet but it can't finish planets quickly enough, even the small ones, or leave a lasting penalty on the colony that would make a difference. And it looks like a weird shoe.
Rapture Battlecruiser - Vengeance should apply pre-mitigation to be useful against focus firing which is it's only use really. Vengeance should also retaliate damage from abilities such as Nano Disassembler. Low DPS output and not very durable.
Radiance Battleship - Animosity has been reported to be bugged - you can override the force attacking condition by issuing another command. It should force fleeing ships to turn around and attack. Cleansing Brilliance is rather lackluster by itself without the old overpowered Malice. It's difficult to get off from an optimal firing angle and once you do it's nothing special. It should have shorter cooldown or do more damage. Like the Kol some more frontal DPS wouldn't hurt this battleship.
Progenitor Mothership - Good colonizer and fleet supporter. Malice doesn't get much use over Shield Restore anymore though. Maybe it got nerfed too hard. Also has surprisingly high DPS which in combination with Shield Restore make it effective against neutrals in the beginning unlike Revelation, Rapture or Halcyon.
Halcyon Carrier - Good ship, useful abilities. Adept Hangar Anima is clearly much weaker than its other abilities. If Telekinetic Push had a short duration it could be used before the masses of strikecraft get in range to fire instead of after.
"And it looks like a weird shoe."
LOL. Great ship, looks dumb.
I always thought the colonizer caps should have heavy, heavy defense, and little offense. It just seems like it would make more sense. You don't build colonizers for battle. Also, they die so quickly when caught in a bad spot. I just think they should be able to take a lot of hurtin, just to be able to last. Armor/shields up, guns down.
(I don't think the DPS is too great as of now, just saying if the armor/sheilds go up, then DPS should naturally have to be nerfed to prevent having a tank, thus defeating the purpose.)
I think caps are fine as far as hull and shields are concerned. They can pretty much handle their supply's worth of frigates alone after a few levels. And they have abilities and siege on top of that. The problem is that big fleets can so easily focus fire on anything. If a cap has 100 fleet supply worth of LRM's focus firing on it it should go down quickly. Anything else would make caps overpowered. But you should be able to protect your caps with a wall of Flak or defensive fire or something.
Generally I think the Battleships at least should have better DPS with a frontal focus.
A Progenitor has just as much firepower as a Radiance and Malice adds to that. Progenitor's firepower is adequate but Radiance should have more - it can't colonize and it's made for battle. And the Kol is put to shame by Marza that is also a siege engine.
Some Battlecruisers have weak DPS as well. Akkan, Rapture, Revelation..
Training the capital crews could be a little cheaper too. Does anyone actually ever train cap ship crews? It's more cost effective to build 2-3 frigates instead.
actually, not necessarily. 100 fp is just double those of a capship. and would a single capship vs 2 go down just as fast? barley. 1 vs 2 is pretty outnumbered, but not vastly to the degree that it should get vaporised.
I think we had this discussed already, not sure if it's any point bringing it up again. I give it very shortly. capships are worth mostly for their abilities and theoretically for their higher hp which would allow them to deal out some damage, take some and then retreat to get repaired. in theory. in practice, the damage amounts in big fleets waste anything pretty fast, so there is no point building something whose strength lies in the necessity to have it survive battles and come back repaired and not in hard dmg/hp per resource values.
I have used Provoke Hysteria. Excesively. Provided one Revelation battlecruiser takes too long. But try it with three. 3 Revelations all using provoke hysteria, and the planet is neutralized faster than by bombing with any number of ships. As for guidance, that is automatic. It gives a 15% boost in offensive capabilities to allied ships.
Rapture Battlecruiser - Vengeance should apply pre-mitigation to be useful against focus firing which is it's only use really. Vengeance should also retaliate damage from abilities such as Nano Disassembler.
uuuhmmm...What?
I was able to to deter an ENTIRE TEC fleet using cleansing brilliance. The problem is that the cooldown is too long.
Progenitor Mothership - Good colonizer and fleet supporter. Malice doesn't get much use over Shield Restore anymore though. Maybe it got nerfed too hard.
Malice is used to collapse the shields of enemy fleets. You would know this if you used more than one Progenitor in a fleet even once. It is an attack that can affect multiple ships. That is what makes it so good.
Halcyon Carrier - Good ship, useful abilities. Adept Hangar Anima is clearly much weaker than its other abilities.
I do have to agree on that point. I usually use 3 halcyons and have never noticed the affect of this ability.
If you use mods, specifically Real Capital Ships V1.11, you get a much more satisfying experience with caps.
But otherwise I agree with you. Especially the exp. thing
Jrla21 I'm talking about multiplayer. Three Revelation Battlecruisers is not a winning strategy.
Any ability that takes more than one cap using the same ability to make a difference is by definition underpowered.
Where do we find this mod ?? i did a search and nothing came up...
And therein lies the rub. Multiplayer is a very different game and you can't balance capitals on the principle that you only get 1.
I can't see how making more capital ships viable in multiplayer could hurt SP in any way. So yes, you can balance them better than what they are now.
The Eggs and Marzas are the most powerful caps in SP as well. You can just pretty much build whatever you want because you are fighting AI. And the AI also builds weaker caps.
Go to downloads at top of home page, then go to modifications button that page. Will be on first page of that list.
Or u can go on Impluse, select Sins like u r going to update but dont activate. Side panel will show a list of options. Select mods.
Points said:
Battleships: Their foward weapons shoudl do 50% more damage for all races. They should also get a 25% HP bunus on armor and sheild for all reaces.
The weapons and armor of other caps are fine.
Some caps could use to some small abilaty chnages.
Akkan: Targeting uplink shoudl have its chance to hit changed to a damage done bonus. Other then that the only way to make it work as ti should would be to lower the chance to hit of all weapons on all races by 15-20%. This isnt over powered sicne the advent do the same with the carrier at lvl3 getting 22% bonus to cool down of weapons wich translate to 22% bonus to weapon damage. Give the race witht he weakest DPS some teeths.
Collonise: should indeed start giving mines at lvl 1. The reason why they dont is because their probably a hard code that makes it so if you have lvl3 colonise that would give 3 mines and the planet only has 2 astrois it would cause a crash. But hosnetly it cheap that oteh races get a bonus for lvl colonise and that TEC dont. Ideas are to have colonise instead lower the cost of building trade ports/refineries at the planet by 20/35/50% per level for 1 or 2 minutes. Or to have lvl1 1 mines free, lvl2 2 mines free, lvl3 2 mines and 1 trade port free.
Kol: Gauss Gun: Simply add a 30 to 50% chance to bypass mitigation. Nothign more.
Sova: Only good for rushing the enemi with embargo, does nothing to actuly realy help your fleet in combat and it a terrible planet bombers.
Rapid Manufacturing: Other then being used in defencive potions were your building more ships or defences it hard ever comes usefull. Would simply tweak the abilaty to not only instantly rebuild the sovas strike craft but those of every friednly ship in the well.
Vasari Egg:
Drain planet: Duratiom should be cut from 30 seconds to 15. Population killed and resorces drained from planet should be double to maintain current figures.
Gravaty Warhead: Sould be switched with the maraders phase out hull.
Revelation and Rupture Should have they damage increased to make them more viasble in direct combat. And the Revelation needs a new model Badly becaise it is ASS UGLY.
Projenitor: Duration of sheild bosting time should be increased. Recharge time and AM consumption should also be incresed propotionaly.
Skirantra Carrier: Repair could, same as the projenitors sheild boost abilaty. Longer duration with proportinal Recharge time and AM consumtion.
Also for all races The reasearch cost for purchasing more capital ship crews shoudl be lowered. Currently going pass 6 crews is absolutely not worth it even when i am running ECO as TEC it's bloody hell expensive. So not worht it anymore. The cost should be lowered pass that point.
Capital ship lvl througth puchasing, I purchase lvl for cap ships and it works great. Buying the lvls is very usefull if their should be a cost reduction it should be 250. So 1000/1250/1500 to upgrade instead of 1250/1500/1750.
XP share in combat should remain as is. But in the furture if game mecanic permits their should be a way to set how much XP each cap ship gains in combat. So if your ahve a low lvl cap ahve the xp go to it in order to lvl that cap up.
I took the Vulkoras for a spin and got it up to lvl 6.
Turns out Disintegration is affected by mitigation. Ugh. This lvl 6 ultimate ability damaged the target capital ship for 300 and healed the Vulkoras for 1000.
300 seemed too low even after mitigation if it's supposed to do 1200 damage. But this ability shouldn't be affected by mitigation at all.
Compare to lvl 3 Nano Disassembler from a lvl 5 Egg. It does 1200 hull damage and -6 armor with half the AM and cooldown. So it really does 2400+ hull damage over the same time frame and cost compared to lvl6 Vulkoras' 1200 mitigated.
Lame.
Thanx for the numbers. Then the Eggs Nano Dissasemble need a nerf and the Vulkoras Disintergretion a buff. One loses bypass mitigation the other gains it.
That sounds pretty good. The main point of Nano Disassembler should be the armor penalty anyway so that the Egg would let other ships do more damage instead of doing it all by itself. The colonizer should be a team player while the destroyer should be dangerous on its own.
Actually, if you read the descriptions of the ships, the Evacuumator is quite deliberately meant to be the strongest of the Vasari ships. They have a different mindset than others. They are somewhat nomadic, with planets populated mostly by slaves. The actual Vasari populations live on Evacuators, which are always the flagships of their fleets, and more heavily armed and armored than anything else, because they're that important to them.
Not to mention that it's one of the Vasari's few bonuses. Nerf the Evacuator and they'd suck even more than they already do.
repleid in wrong tread.
Thanks for that mod info, Real Capital Ships, but it doesnt work with Entrenchment.....
Yeah most mods are completely useless right now.
So the other four Vasari caps might as well get deleted in the next patch because the Eggs are so awesome.
I don't object to making the Eggs cost 4000cr/500met/300crys + 60 fleet supply and left as they are.
You'll find most of the best players playing Vasari in MP by the way. And they use nothing but Evacuators. It gets boring.
Good sic Starhound, seems like your caut someone who like game imbalances because he just wants to use them.
To be fair I don't care about MP at all... I never play it.
In SP where you actually do end up building 10+ cap ships, the others all have their uses. Obviously if I was never going to build more than one or two cap ships in a whole game, they'd be Evacuators. But that's not a problem with the Evacuator, that's a problem with the way the game works in MP that no one ever builds more cap ships.
There's little reason to build more than 2 Evacuators in a game. Maybe 4 at the absolute max. After that, you start wanting the abilities and firepower of your other ships.
Nerfing the Evacuator for the sake of the MP players would ruin it's flavor in SP.
Akkan: the free extractors ability seems somewhat redundant since a TEC tech cuts extractor cost down to 150 each. Investing in the Akkan ability takes away potential for a decent combat cap ship, investing in the tech takes ~10 extractors before it pays for itself, and it is horribly counterproductive to invest in both.
Even if the Akkan gives 1 more extractor at each level, it doesn't seem like a better choice than a Kol/Marza to start, plus colony ships (and, on medium/large maps, both levels of the extractor tech).
I can't play MP, as my internet conn is too slow. tried it, but it lagged like crazy (imean literally 2-3 seconds between equally long lags)
on power caps: each race has one. TEC is Marza, Advent is Progenitor, Vasari is Jarrasul
on Vasari Caps:
Skirantra Carrier - A fragile ship that's main power lies in staying the hell away from the enemy and using its up to 6 strikecraft squadrons. it's strong ability is Replicate Forces - it copies nearby frigates and cruisers so that the size of your force is increased (note: requires fleet space), repair cloud - useful for quickly repairing ships that have been damaged by battle, and can mitigate damage taken during battle, however is not very strong; scramble bombers - lauchs an extra squadron of bombers which cannot be recovered.
Kortul Devastator - a powerful ship in brawls, as its spread dps ensures that it can go into a clump of lesser ships and come out alive. powerful abilities: Destructive Nanites - best with the Desolator's phase missile swarm, Power Surge - good low cost aility that restores your shield and increases fire rate quite a bit, and disable weapons - renders any nearby strikecraft ineffectual, making the ship nearly invulnerable to them while the ability is active
Vulkoras Desolator - a good ship for pitched battles, as long as it isn't surrounded. its power lies in its forward dps, higher than any other Vasari cap. powerful abilities: Phase missile Swarm - good against groups of enemies, especially when joined with the Devastator's Destructive Nanites, deploy seige platform - drops a platform that bombards planet; if let alone, it's planet bombing damage is higher than any ship in the game, when adding the platforms' damage as it can keep 3 at a time, with 4 for about 5-10 seconds, it can also drop a platform and fight ships as it bombard the planet; Disintegration: VERY underpowered for an ultimate ability, as it is affected by mitigation (seemingly overly so)
Antorak Marauder - An extremely useful support/guerilla warfare ship that, tho fragile in large battles, can take ships out of a fight quickly. It's Phase out hull ability is very useful if microed, however the AI has no idea how to use it; distort gravity - increases your ship's speed and acceleration if nearby (also targets self); subversion - slows building work rates and cuts resource income (w/o you getting the resources); and it's main strength - Stabilize Phase Space. This ability allows the marauder to act as a phase gate, so ships can jump from one of your gated worlds straight to the fight or allow your ships to flee should the need arise. however, this is bugged, as it does not always work as it is meant to
Nice post orodom and ont eh points you said the ships were week i suggest to improve them. Also Marza is onlys trong because advent and vasary players dont build the marauder or the revelation (which looks so uggly why would anyone wnat one int heir fleet) wich can easily undermine the marza. I personaly have no problems dealign with the marza as i make sur eto always have a ship that can interrupt it.
Also in my proposed changes i suggect to give the egg the phase out hull abilaty in exchange for gravaty warheads wich if marzas are such a problem would only help vasary player sin the longrun.
SP needs overpowered caps for flavor? What? I play SP sometimes and find it annoying there as well. If something is clearly better it needs to cost more.
EadTaes, I wouldn't dare take Phase Out Hull away from the Antorak - it's a signature ability from the cap that can manipulate phase space. But I think the Egg's Nano Disassembler definitely needs work.
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