I was on another site and we were discussing the types of games PC gamers want but can't have because no one is making them anymore. After scratching my head, I realized that one genre we haven't seen in a long time is the starship simulator. By that, I mean a game that puts you in command of a full-fledged, space-going warship. The last good one I played was back on the 16-bits and was called Starfleet Command I. It was a game that took place in a Star Trek-like universe where the player was put in charge of a warship. You could earn ranks and medals by completing successful patrols and such. Even though it was a simplistic game by todays standards, it still had all the essential feature: navigation, tractor beams, marine boarding parties, damage control, phasers and photons torps, mines, etc. Great stuff!
In the world of 32-bit gaming, we haven't really seen a good starship simulator. There have been a steady trickle of Wingman-type games (with Jumpgate Evolution being the most recent), but those are more about single seat craft and dogfighting. There was Battlecruiser 3000 AD, but that was a disaster. Star Trek Bridge Commander was decent, but it is quite long in the tooth now (but it did have the right idea). EVE does offer command of large ships, but while configurations can be quite complex, you really are still only operating a ship of one.
I would love to see some company take a crack at this forgotten genre once again. After playing Ubisoft's excellent Silent Hunter series, I think a similar, space-based game could be awesome. With today's computational abilities, a gamer could literally walk the corridors of his ship, interact with his crew/systems and engage in detailed patrols (again, basically Silent Hunter).
Perhaps Stardock/Ironclad would be the ones to do this? Both companies seem to love their space-based games. What is more, now that we've seen the excellence that is Sins, a game that will only get better and more epic as it matures with these expansions, the Sins universe would seem to be a natural setting for such a game. I think it would be a lot of fun to see the Sins universe from the bridge of a single vessel, such as a Kol battlecruiser.
Just a thought. I just wish somebody would pick up the spaceship sim genre once again, though.
Freelancer was fun, and the nomad ships and system were amazing. My reaction coming upon the dyson sphere was "WTF?! A wall in space?" Great game, but the downsides were that you couldn't get capital ships (without mods), nor use a joystick.
Following this discussion, i re-installed X3. Getting into the ship gave that same overpowering feeling as the first time, it's as if you were just learning to read, and the teacher gives the "Lord of the Rings" - trilogy for reading practise. X3 UI is a bit user-abusive at first, but when you learn to use it , it has some very powerful tools. For example when i was playing previously i controlled my factories and trade ships on the other side of the universe from my fighters cockpit, including buying new ships and giving them orders.
And thanks for listing all those games everyone, i'll take a look unless X3 sucks me back in, i really want that Python Darkstar one, that someone mentioned, was recently added to Good Old Games, they also have the Freespace games.
Ya know, it seems all these niche sims each have about 70-80% of the fomula correct, but miss out on tying the package up into a nice whole. I guess that's where a professional publisher comes in. Those guys often have a good critical eye for tightening up a game and reminding devs what they like is not necessarily what makes a game good.
It's also funny and interesting that most of the reviews for these games begin with: "Judging from the letters we receive (and from the discussions we have with each other at the office), there's a sizable contingent of gamers out there who are really hungering for classic space combat games. Games like Wing Commander, TIE Fighter, Freespace, Independence War, and others still have thriving communities despite their age." You listening, IronClad?!?
Still, I wish they would stop with the Wing Commander, et al. references. Its time to innovate!
Lastly, considering how the Star Trek franchise is still so strong, I'm surprised we haven't seen a new Bridge Command/Academy yet. There is a new ST MMO coming out, but alas - yet again - it seems to use an EVE third-person approach to starship command. Sigh. Let's try to be original here! If I was making a space MMO, I would instantly realize that EVE has their approach sewed-up and I would try to do something different. Giving gamers a "Wrath of Khan" approach to starship battles would be very different. No "pew-pew"ing, but a focus on careful maneuvering punctuated with moments of terror.
Ya know, in the end, its going to take a successful movie to really light a fire under the industry. Something to get away from the Star Wars approach to space combat. Perhaps the forthcoming Honor Harrington film will be the catalyst we need? I'm not a big fan of that series, but it has the right amount of realism when it comes to commanding a starship of various sizes.
I'm really surprised someone beat me to Starshatter - it has barely any recognition at all. And then throwing down I've Found Her in the same post - you're taking all my suggestions!
So, yeah, there's several space sim games, with different takes on the whole thing, and it depends what angle you want to play:
If you want to be in a Fighter (and you want an actual sim):
-) I've Found Her (Babylon 5 Universe, full newtonian)
-) Starshatter: The Gathering Storm (Original IP, Dynamic Campaign, arcade/semi-newtonian/full newtonian options)
-) X-Wing Alliance (Star Wars universe, arcade flight model, sim level control options)
-) X series, X3:Terran Conflict the latest (Original IP, semi-newtonian)
Of those, the X series has the biggest fleet battles, but also has as small fights as 1v1. Starshatter is right behind that in scope, with X-Wing in the middle. I've found Her is exclusively fighter vs fighter battles, with about a dozen ships in a big fight.
Capital Ship wise, the market is sadly undersaturated:
-) Starfleet Command Series, SFC 2 being the best, but not the prettiest (Star Trek universe, real-time-turn-based board game adaptation, 2D flight plane, very complex, Isometric View)
-) Starfleet Academy series, Klingon Academy being the latest (Star Trek universe, first person, arcade flight model, rather complex)
-) X series, see above
-) Starshatter, see above
On X, X2 has the best capital ship feeling because you actually were sitting in the captains chair on a fully modelled 3D bridge. Think new Battlestar Galactica CnC sized. Sadly, the rest of the game is inferior to the latter entries in the series.
On SFC2, SFC 1 and 2 are probably the most realistic Star Trek every written - it contains seeking missile weaponry, point defense grids, mines, fighter craft and the everyday beurocracy of a Navy (refits, shipyard capacity issues, wrecking your empires budget by trying to build the biggest Dreadnaught, etc.). Which is probably the reason it is not considered canon.
I'm not going to list RTS/RTT games since, those are a more established genre, and you get a lot of space based ones.
PS.: Don't judge the X-series story by what you get presented in the games - it's an incredibly butchered version of the novelized story (which was actually written first by one of the games developers). Part of the butchering was done to make it playable to more than utter hardcore (lightspeed lag in comms and visuals, time dilation do not a fun game make), part of the butchering was done because of budget problems, and the most horrendous voice actors on the planet chosen by the publisher.
I just want BIGGER capital ships. Ships that don't have maybe ten guns on the port side, but ten thousand. Ships with shields so strong and armor so thick even nukes don't do the trick.I want to see people flying out of the ships when they're damaged! I want to choose exactly where my marines land, and it should affect what they see when they fight! And I am not talking about pre-rendered video clips and numbers showing you the result of a capture attempt, I am talking about ships with real 3d interior that you can fight in. I am talking about ships that, should you ever manage to destroy one, you LEAVE THE DAMN SOLARSYSTEM CAUSE ITS NOT GOING TO BE THERE MUCH LONGER.
Even with Star Trek flight academy, the size of your ships completely lack feeling. I remember that movie where the Enterprise crashes into another ship and is literally destroyed, but not in some pansy explosion, it's metal grinding against each other, ripping apart floor after floor and you can see each deck on its own leaking. Now THAT is a capital ship fight. The death stars! Those were capital ships!
Games just don't have the scale. They're stuck with this "oh yeah, but how could maybe 5 worlds ever produce such ships?". Fuck it. Make it a million worlds instead. That's what I loved about the 40k universe. It was huge.
Yes W40k is huge. Stupidly huge - to an (intentionally) comical degree. Noone in their right mind would build Death Star sized ships (which housed more than a million civilians just to provide the infrastructure) - not to mention bigger ones.
They wouldn't be fun in games either - once you get to gun #100 you're already past caring about it. So I hit with 900 instead of 1000 super-mega-death-lasers? Who cares?
Marine #9640 managed to beat two opponents at the same time? Good for him, too bad he's dead and buried because there's a thousand more people involved in that boarding action. The unique moments, the nailbiters, don't exist anymore on that scale.
That's too big for me (but I like your idea of flying crewman and picking boarding locations). What makes a ship sim challenging is using your limited resources to achieve a victory. Naval warfare, in many ways, is very chess-like in that regard. It is a battle of wits. Once you include thousands of weapons, wits are replaced with raw firepower and the battle becomes a brawl instead of a duel.
Still, at this point, I'd take any type of realisitc cap ship simulator!
Though not capship (not military atleast), Northstar (Kerberos Space Trading Love Letter to the Privateer/Elite/Firefly styles) is going to have boarding actions with fully modelled interiors and individual crew members.
That sounds really interesting!
I just purchased X3TC and discovered that that game has marine boarding parties as well.
I like the look of X3 TC but I am going to wait until they drop Tages from it.
Star Trek Online is one to look forward to.
Details can be found on www.startrekonline.com
All of those games you listed Daton, are very good in their own right. I've played almost all of them. One I think you guys forgot to mention was Freespace 2, which is open source. There has been a tonne of work done on the engine and its led to some AMAZING space fighter simulation. Here's a good mod link for you guys to look at: http://www.youtube.com/user/BeyondtheRedLine
They've done some incredible stuff there. However, it seems this mod won't be coming up for awhile as there was a team dispute shortly after they won the Mod of the Year award at ModDB - which was bad news, at least for a BSG fan like me. The members who left did make a new team and are making the following mod: http://www.moddb.com/games/diaspora It looks like it's going to be just as good if not better than BTRL. And for those of you that love Babylon V, I 100% recommend this mod here: http://www.moddb.com/games/the-babylon-project It's brilliant. Now, for Freelancer (FL), I've been playing that game for the past 3 yrs now. There are quite a few online groups around that are really interested in modding the game. One of the most notable communities is called "The Starport". It's basically a forum where all the different FL communities get together and discuss things. That link is found here: http://www.the-starport.net/ For me, I am the developer of a mod called "FreeWorlds" for FL. It's a Star Wars (SW) Total Conversion for FL. We're trying to make the mod itself as SW canon as possible, if you're into that sort of thing. You'll be able to fly both fighters/bombers and capital ships. For more information about that, if you're curious, go here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/freeworlds-182/
or our developer blogs found here: http://www.freeworlds-mod.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=44
(we have a tonne of videos and screenies there for people to look at) Hope you guys didn't mind these plugs, but I thought they'd be appropriate for the thread.
None of those games sold the same amount of copies as say, W40K Dawn of War. Also, many of their sequels completely sucked, which almost everyone either forgets or dont talk about it. So if 100K people sign a petition for a space sim. No developer is going to spend the necesary millions required to make a great space sim in this age.
Even if there are millions of people hungering for a space sim. Just read this entire thread. Almost every single person has a diferent taste, a different niche, a diferent preference. Homeworld2 is one of the best space RTS ever, yet many people think it sucks, and a lot of people begged for that sequel.
Still, I heard many Silent Hunter remarks, and you guys are forgetting one thing. Silent Hunter is based on real life, on real history, on real source material. This mean the devs of that game did not had to create a whole universe of rules out of nothing in order to make the game.
In my opinion, most space sims of old are quite limited in their universe. Many of their rules are rock-paper-scissor in nature. Many of them copy real life rules and paste them in outer space. Even EVE Online copied the old medieval siege warfare system in it.
Some space sims created a great and diversed universe, but its implementation sucked. Others space sims had a great implementation, but their universe was very small, very limited.
Sushisemegato he wants a starship simulator not a fighter or freighter game. At least thats the way I read it.
@Destraex: Seeing some of the games named here, like XWA, people were touching on different areas. I thought I'd dive in a bit more of the area of fighter simulation. As for capitals, you can fly them in FL.
@Rackjabbit: If you liked XvT, you'll like FW 2. We're trying to reproduce XvT/XWA as much as possible, even getting ships from the X-Wing Alliance Upgrade project. Here's a video of some of our fighters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8bhrxF5_nQ#
Someone sell me on Starshatter. I hear that there are still some serious problems--less-than-intelligent ally AI, difficult capital ship combat...
I'd like to like it, I think.
@Sushisemegato I just think its strange to go off on such a tangent when he has stated thats the kind of game he is trying to avoid. Hes played these games and wants to move onto something that has a real starship feel and simulation. Does FL provide anything for cap ships at all that is different? Or does it treat them as big fighters? Not angry just find it strange.
P.S. I'm sorry but I think an FL Star Wars mod would make me miss my XWA/XvsTie shield controls and other ships systems too much. FTL is just too simple. Another thing I used to hate about FL was the spin BS that went on everytime a fight ensued, it drove me nuts. I mean you needed to be in third person mode to see everything and in that mode the ships look absolutely silly and unbelieveable when they turn. I mean no thusters just a slight movement of the model to indicate its doing ww2 style turns.
Looks good though
@Legerdemain As for Starshatter. To be really honest i'd have to play it a whole lot more to answer your questions on AI Leger. I find the cap ship controls to be fine though, no real problem with it, but its no childs play, it does take a bit of learning. I would say its got the same learning curve as the more complex craft in XWA or xwing. Cap ship combat is certainly not difficult but you do need to learn how to control your squadron of ships properly.
Whatever else you'd like to know i'd be happy to tell. If you want pics of anything too just let me know. I can even do a small review if your really keen.
In the mean time here is some starshatter shots I took on my PC. Just to show you a bit more. Obviously their are management and other planning/universe screens to show if your interested.
I thnk the really good space combat flight sim that is the modern equivalent to X wing is freespace 1 and 2. I heard independence war 1 and 2 are goog too, never tried it. Tried a bit of tychon the fringe, but that was awhile back, it was fun almost like an older version of Freelancer without the multiplayer.
i think there is an indie developer that does the Starwaraith series of games from 3D games, google him up, you can email the dude, he will answer your questions. As far as a real starship sim are concerned, if you want something that allows you interaction with your crew while being able to control your ship in combat, freespace/x wing style, i think you might have to wait a while. Sorry to disappoint you, but Universal combat/battlecrusier series just doesn't cut it, there is virtually no crew interaction allowed, and even there are crews you can sorta command, they feel tacked on.
ok here are some of the management screens to show you what kind of depth the game gives. Their are people talking in briefings and during missions. But thier is something a little stale about it as it does not really seem to flow, mods have got this stage right though. The Battlestar mod especially surprised me with its ability to make me feel like I was there. There are cutscenes occasionally.
The game also allows you to fly down to planets to assault the surface! Different physics apply here.
If you want to cammand a starship with an entire crew try Star Trek Bridge Commander
Yes, that's one of the best Capital ship sims - most of which are Star Trek, sadly (a little more variety would be nice). Hard to find though - Bridge Commander has become sort of a cult classic, which makes it quite expensive.
@Destraex: I didn't mean to go off on such a tangent as I was seeing the above posts people made and I thought I'd throw some good mods in there. As for FL, yes, it does feel like a "real" capital ship. We've worked a lot on getting the sluggish and "weighted" feel to them. In addition to this, we've made player ships dockable, so an ISD can carry its own fleet and then deploy them in different systems. Futhermore, we’ll have a “hyperspace” like function where ships can jump from system to system without using docking buoys (if you’ve played FL before).
As for shield controls, we’ve devised a way to accomplish this effect. Essentially, give more power to engines takes away from shield/weapon recharge. Using your weapons more drains engines/shields. So, ya, we’ve tried to accommodate that, too.
Also, speeds are much slower in FW2, and the physics are SWs with only a slight bit of Newtonian physics. This will allow many players to use cockpit mode now.
Anyways, hope this helps with some of the issues you’ve had. Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.
You really shouldnt pretend to understand the topic if its readily apparent that you have no clue. nintendogs,Sims,Mechwarrior/commander,wing commander,tie fighter are just a few off "simulators" off the top of mainstream AAA simulators that tended to sell millions of copies each. So i would have to say you are WRONG repeat WRONG. The genre in itself isnt niche and has multiple examples of million box seller franchises throughout its history. This is also completely ignoring strategy simulators" like the civilization series and car driving.
Starshatter looks interesting, where could I buy it and does it have any DRM? If it came out on impulse or steam tommorow I would buy it in a heatbeat.
its online download like steam and no DRM I know of
You get it here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/334/details/Starshatter.-.The.Gathering.Storm
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