My friend's dad says shooters like Call of Duty and Halo are pointless, so he doesn't let him play them. He also thinks that shooters will get him addicted and he will fail all his grades in school. Can you guys help me formulate an arguement that he can present to his dad in order to be able to play video games and shooters in specific?
P.S. My friend is 13, so he's definitely mature enough to play these games. And please dont spam, be detrimental to our cause, or in any other way be a moron on the forum.
THanks!
He's 13. He's most certainly not mature enough play those games. I recommend checking their ratings.
I have to say, the games are rated Mature. If the parent doesn't want him to play them, he shouldn't play them. I don't agree with the father's reasoning by any means however.
Heh, sounds like my parents back in the day, except they were worried I'd wind up using violence to solve all my problems. Long and short of it is that your friend probably isn't going to get to play any shooters until his dad changes his mind, and that's unlikely to happen. The best advise I can give is for your buddy to stick it out for now, and move out once that becomes an option in a few more years.
Alternately, he could ask his dad "What would I need to do to be allowed to play these games?" Most people are open to making deals, and one I had with my own parents was that I could play video games so long as I kept my grades up and didn't neglect my other chores. The key is being reasonable and diplomatic, and if your friend can do that at 13, he probably is mature enough to be playing them.
Good answer, InfernalRS.
That being said, the notion that he's somehow going to get addicted to them are ridiculous. If there's one thing I'd say it's hard getting addicted to, it's shooters. There's no "next turn"-syndrome, or "next hill" exploration.
The "It's pointless" is a hard argument to beat, though. After all, out of all the genres, shooters are probably the easiest ones to label pointless. I could formulate an argument for most others (to an extent) but it's hard to build an argument for something which's only benefit is "training my mad elite mouse-moving skillz!".
Well, there are some more tactical shooters that require more thought that mad mouse skillz (the Brothers in Arms series comes to mind) - but generally Shooters are some of the least cerebral games.
Shooters are stress release. All that swearing I did at the computer could have been done at the TV instead like it is now. Fucking politicians are bad for the blood pressure when you don't have anything to kill in proxy.
As far as the maturity comments go...
Are there any morons here knocking the maturity level of a thirteen year old that did indeed lack the maturity needed to recognize the difference between a video game and reality? If the guy is that retarded, he'll kill people in his retardation without any prompting by moral highs like Nazi sniping and saving the universe from evil aliens...
Oh right, I forgot, all violence is bad!
Well, my mom says that I'm allowed to play M rated games cause I'm more mature than most kids my age (I'm 14) , hell I'm even allowed to play Grand Theft Auto IV. Now look, your friend may not be mature enough to handle shooters and his parents might think so.
-Seth
InfernalRS gives a very good answer.
Stress release is also a good point. I say that it's better to shoot somebody virtually than actually. (Just don't really say it exactly like that.) I'd say that it depends on maturity though.
Speaking of which... I would not think that an average 13 year old is mature enough. I've some experience in the area, and I'll say that while playing a couple standard shooters for a bit probably wouldn't be a problem on it's own, but it might be a start at that age.
I am 24 and i was playing a lot at that age and still am.
But on the other hand i can understand the opinion of your friends father. Being older now i realize i spent lots of time with this "pointless entertainment" while i should be really going out and rather making social contacts and experiences in real life. Shooters are quite harmless in this aspect, at least if you do not do massive online gaming, there are things worse like World of Warcraft that really substitute for your normal life if you want to. It is not as much a problem of the game itself, it is a problem of the personality behind and if you tend to be a bit unsocial, a bit shy, gaming is the perfect way to forget about it. This age particularly is important when social abilities develop and it is important to go out, have fun with friends, doing stupid things together, meeting the first women and so on. It is just a psychologically meaningful part of life and character development and some people just use gaming to skip this part. What does remain at the end is a cliche computer nerd with no social skills (besides raiding and teaming up for headshots) who will have problems at everyday life interacting with other people. I can fully understand the arguments of your friends dad. It is not about violence, not about the possibility you could apply this violence to the real life, it is about wasting time that should be used more intelligently.
I would suggest your friend the following - discuss this problem with his father in a mature way. He should tell him, he understands the problem. And he should offer him a tradeoff: He may limit the amount of play to 1 hour per day, or another amount on a weekly basis, i`m sure they can agree on something. I think that should be okay with his dad. And some time it will be okay with your friend i think and he may later realize that it really was a good idea.
Nowadays i realize i wasted lots of time in the past i could have used better, even if it also were for having fun. Just going out with friends, enjoying this great time of your life is way better than sitting in front of a pc, believe me. And live can be much more fun than shooters, you just have to allow it to be.
There are different ratings where I live (UK) but I don't play any 18+ games and only have 2 16+ games. My parents haven't banned me from playing them (or hadn't banned, seeing as I'm now 18) simply because they seemed to have decided years ago that I'm perfectly capable of working out what I should and shouldn't play. But its up to individual parents. Admittedly I played almost no games until I was 10 or so, mainly due to parental influence - they had figured that there were far better things I should be doing at that age than wasting time sitting infront of a tv or computer. I'm sure playing shooters at 13 wouldn't have been good for me, in fact I think the first time I played a shooter I would have been 15 and at a friends house. Everyone is different though, so it does depend on the particular person. He's got better things to do though than get into a massive argument with his dad over something so silly as a computer game.
Personally I don't see the point of shooters; virtually all my games are strategy games of some sort, with one or two RPGs. I don't play at all while I'm at uni and only play games during the holidays (ie now).
The fighting is good for unwinding. Think of it like meditation. You don't have to think, and nothing else exists.
Ok, I'm 13 myself, and I consider myself mature enough to play either of these games... There is some blood and gore in these games, I believe, but its virtual. Everyone knows its not real. Seriously, people who try to ban all these things, just haven't played a game before. Oh and could the guy who said, you can't wipe your nose if your 13, please make a mature comment why he thinks youngsters are stupid.
Also, this whole "go play outside" is a flawed argument. Gaming with friends will only strenghten social contact. Not playing or knowing about games is probably worse for your social contacts . Games like WOW are pretty lethal to your social life though, but you can also see the other side of the coin; many people that get addicted to these games, aren't super social to begin with. Making them play outside, hang out with friends may be fun for most of us, but I have some friends who really don't. Gaming with friends is a lot more fun for them.
Also, there are multiples studies that showed that games have no extra agressiveness(my wording sucks) inducing effect. Indeed, better kill an virtual man than a real one. I'm a RTS/RPG -fan myself, but I like to play shooters now and again, and I certainly don't get more aggresive. It's really a cliche.
Like others said, make a deal. Yes it is pointless, but life is pointless, no?
P.S. Halo is 18?
P.P.S. If he is relegious this obviously doesn't work.
I dont think thats right. Communication actually is 90% nonverbal and only 10% is what you really say, the rest is tonality, bodylanguage etc. Just tell me how you want to learn using facial expressions, voice tonality and these things to have an interesting conversation when all you use is a keyboard. Not to mention conversational threads - do you chat with your friends about things that non-gamers find interesting? Do you talk in your everyday life about headshots, items, weapon accuracies? Ever thought that this might be strange to other people? I knew a lot of guys that did and it was strange in fact. Ever flirted with a girl? Do you tell her about your AK47 skills as well?
You dont learn social skills in gaming. You just learn to create a fictional social network with your nerdy friends that all share the same problem - not knowing what to talk when encountering other people. I am talking in extremes here of course, not saying that the games are the problem and every gamer will become like this, but that people that tend to be this way use the games to distract from their problems. Gaming can become a problem, that is a fact.
I agree with di55ec7ion about this. My parrents used to say this alot. Communication is very important! I have however been lucky to steer away from game's like Wow that totally swallow your life and time. I've seen people trowing away their school and friends for game's like this.
I disagree with the fact that shooters cannot be addictive. I have also seen people getting addicted to Counter-strike and other shooters.
When i started working and while doing that offcourse also being in a work enviroment you notice that communication is very important and also mandatory when working with a team. If all you know to say is: "you take the left flank and you take the right" then maybe all you will ever be is a soldier.
The most important thing is to find some sort of balance in gaming and also doing other stuff. I find it is important to have another hobby. Maybe a sport of some sort so you learn that it is not bad to work for something.
Now i realize that this doesn't fit in the topic at all!! So here's my 2 cents.
Your friend is 13 years of age and should listen to his father. You should not make him come up with arguements to help him play shooter's. If he cannot think of them himself he might already be infected with the "(non communicative)" virus some people have these day's.
I understand the father, you see them so much just walking around like zombie's thinking that because they have program's like Ventrilo or Teamspeak and are talking to people form all around the world that they are amazingly social and have so many friends. All the father wants is that when your friend reaches an age where he can go out with friends to a bar, or to go to a cinema, or other things that people in his country do for fun and he want to go do them. That he will not be the youngster that can't or won't go because he doesn't have any friends. School at his age is important because most friends you make there will influence you at a later stage in your life. You learn from them in a way your friend cannot understand at this age. This is why he should listen to his father ( AND TO ME, OR I'LL REAP YOUR SOULS!!! BOTH OF EM!!!). Now you very smartly neglected to include your age in this post. If you are however of the same age or younger. Then try to learn a thing or 2 from people that have some experience with it. Don't try to outsmart his father with arguements comming from someone else with more experience than you or your friend. It is easy and his father will see through it in a second.
Best Regards,
ME!
Actually, approximately 7 percent of communication comes from spoken words, 38 percent is from the tone of the voice, and 55 percent comes from body language. I'd say that "what you really say" is both spoken words and the tonality of those spoken words; so that is around 45% right there.
I wonder if this puts children at a natural disadvantage, since they don't have fully developed bodies - or if we naturally compensate for it. I wonder if this could also be the reason behind the development of boy/men's voices throughout puberty - the natural interpretation of voices, where a strong voice is usually considered commanding.
I could use that thesis to piss off some feminists....
brb
All very well-stated arguments. Aside from the possibility of making a deal, (I can play videogames as long as I keep my GPA at 3.5 or above) maybe just stick it out and concentrate on being a teenager until you're independent, 5 more years or so. Then you can play all the games you want, eat Capn' Crunch until you eat your own puke, date questionable women, etc...
As long as your adulthood is burdened by a surplus of children and/or a life-sucking career, there will be plenty of time for games.
I can't speak for Halo and Call of Duty, but FPS games are not mindless. Although they involve elements of skill and hand-eye-coordination and muscle memory, they also involve the strategic thinking needed to be able to anticipate an opponent's movements, general awareness of the situation around you, and the ability to be able to think about how the elements of a landscape or arena around you can be used to your advantage. In some game types you also need to use your noggin to figure out how you can be of most use to your team to advance your team's goals. In serious FPS games a player might even need to communicate with teammates over voice comm in order to coordinate movements and teamwork (ie, cover the flag carrier when he takes the low route, get into position to cut down any pursuers when your flag carrier enters the base, etc.). Some FPS games can even qualify as bona-fide cyber-sports.
This is a serious concern, and not just for FPS games. The other concern is that a gaming addiction or obsession could keep him from engaging in other activities (exercise, athletics, chasing girls, hanging out with friends, exploring the outside world, getting a job, etc.).
As with anything else in life, gaming is OK in reasonable quantities but can become a problem when taken to an extreme. I tend to think that a bright, good student who has a sense of responsibility would continue to remain a bright good student with a sense of responsibility, but that can always change and his father's concern is legitimate though perhaps a little extreme. He might impose a rule such as, "You can game as long as you're maintaining a 3.5 GPA and taking AP classes and showing evidence that you can socizlalize successfully with other people."
Sorry kid... but that almost made me pee. In general principle I'd say parents who think kids need to be mature to play games and watch violent movies are parents to damned irresponsible to participate in their kids lives and explain the differences to them. I think there are absolutely some concepts that a child may not be developed enough to understand, but from my experiences they just ended up being things that failed to hold my attention when I was a kid. And as far as that goes I don't see many dark concepts in games, just gore. My parents never placed any restrictions on the things I was exposed to (except for pulp fiction, my mom made me wait till I was 15 for that) and I'm not too fucked up... but they always had the prescence of mind to make sure they were there to guide how I interpreted the experience (except for the usual suspects, I think I was 9, shortly there-after I recieved a lecture on the term "cock-sucker" I thought it was a term of endearment) This kind of shit is just another symtom of the ridelin age, just look at a letter on a box and trust some ratings board has made the right choice for you child.
In all honesty, knowing what I know now as an adult, if I could do my life over again, I would spend less time playing computer games in high school and more time doing other things involving socializing and exploring the outside world to broaden my life experiences. I would make sure that i had a different job every summer or perhaps two different jobs a year in different types of work, I would spend more time learning outdoorsy type skills, I would lift weights, and perhaps I would study karate if possible.
eh my mom wont let me BUY M rated games till im 18. she doesnt care if i play em at all, hell i was playing halo when i was twelve (or eleven cant remember).
but in this case, i'd say just tell your friend to endure right now, his dad is gonna be adamant on this (i know from experience same thing happened with my dad, but in my case it was regarding my new computer.)
@in regards to FPS games being mindless, they arent, well with maybe the exception of some of hte zombie shooters out there (not including l4d that game is not mindless)
Do you really think a thirteen year old in today's United States is going to learn anything new that he was unaware of from playing a first person shooter game? It's not as though people don't get shot in movies and it's not as though a thirteen year old cannot distinguish a fictitious video game from reality.
QFT.
What you can see and what you should see are two quite different things. (Not to mention movie and game are utterly different experiences) Ratings are there for a reason - and ratings include more than just one letter. There's a very nice precise list of reasons for the letter, from which a parent can determine if it's right for their kid.
Seeing as how the original target of the thread is 13 and his parents decide what to buy - the Rating is exactly what should (and hopefully will) decide. They're made for just that situation after all.
1. Emotions are very usefull in circumventing that problem.
2. You talk with them face to face, not with the computer.
3. People have the idea gaming is the problem people sit so long behind a computer. A lot of classmates of mine sit atleast an hour a day on Myspace/Facebook/Hyves &MSN. The main reason of MMORPG's being so addictive is the social part; being part of a guild/groups. Most of the actual gameplay is repetitive and boring. It's pretty scary.
Most people have played a videogame atleast a few times in the 21th. No you don't, you talk about it like each other shared hobby; if other people are near(you know, and don't hate) you usually talk about something else. The real thing is actually, that
And yes I have flirted with a girl, and no obviously I wouldn't tell her about my mad AK-47 skills. (for the record, I wasn't talking about myself in my original post). Some people who are "hardcore"gamers, (so not your average teenager) will keep it strictly separated from their social lives, they won't talk to non-gamers about it. Some people don't... there are mostly the classical nerd. And ovbviously they have few friends, most of them antisocial and yes also gamers. The problem people don't see however, is that these people are antisocial to begin with. I have this friend(he is atleast honest and doesn't follow like a sheep) who is a hardcore gamer. Cut him off his games, he still is very reclusive and antisocial, he was it before he was a gamer. Before the "gaming era" there were outsiders, they were antisocial. Now in the gaming era they are called gamers. Although the computer has an antisocializing effect on that, it's marginal. On the flipside: it's much easier to get to know someone on the interwebs than do it face to face, which is a blessing for the timid.
Your friends just sound like the average teenager; he is pretty unlikely to get addicted.
P.S. Sorry for the bad wording; english is not my native language.
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