I know there was a similar thread but that concerned heroes. I want to get your ideas relating specifically to squad/officers
There have been a few interesting threads dealing with squads and officers (tangentially and directly). I've played some good games that used different systems when dealing with armies/squads but i've been wondering which system of advancement would work better for Elemental. something along the lines of Fantasy Wars or Total War? I'm not talking about heroes or generals, that's separate. I want to focus on squads.
With fantasy wars you had to make one choice per level up (as far as lvl 5). There were no officers and each level up provided you with a decision to make from 3 options as well as increased hp and damage iirc.
With Total War there was no leveling up but if you had a general in charge he would accrue certain advantages/disadvantages over time based generally on how you played (for the most part they were positive but there were some negative characteristics).
I'd like a system where you can research 'officer' in a tech tree and (I can't remember who's idea this was) that would open the option during the recruitment stage of placing an officer in charge of your squad (with attendant costs).
Do you want your squads to gain experience? If so, would you be in favour of a Fantasy Wars type system where you get to chose or more like the Total War series where you are awarded pros/cons based on style of play? Do you want officers? Do you want them to gain experience? If so, do you want your officers to gain experience separate to your squad? ie they level up separately; while your squad levels up and gains access to Fantasy Wars type options, you officers aslo level up but confer different types of bonuses? Or a system that utilises aspects of both, where you chose your squads abilities at each level up but your officers develop more along the lines of the Total War system?
I'm impartial to squad experiance. MoM had it, HoMM did not. I think this probebly will.
It has so much unit customization, that I would not be surprised if they even have a special model for some sort of squad officer.
Personally I do not think the officer should level up by himself. But the whole unit together. I know it seems logical to move vetrans around to train weaker troops, but I don't really thing it needs to be that complex. I mean, I guess I wouldn't mind if it did, just I don't think it really would benifit much from it.
I understand what you're saying and, tbh, i hadn't considered the level of unit customisation that a lot of people have been talking about. I suppose it would be kind of difficult to implement squad levelling if they are going to become obsolete every few game years. So maybe they would just use a kind of Total War system that covers your squad but you can move your officer from an obsolete squad to a newly formed, better equipped squad?
In fact, i don't recall ever playing a game where there was an in depth unit customisation tool along side a developed leveling up system (besides increased hp/dam). They seem, to my mind, mutually exculsive. Darn
I'm seriously open to correction here by the way *fingers crossed*
well, in civilization IV, you can pay to upgrade units. They keep their EXP and such (so a vetran unit stays a vetran unit, and one that has a perm-bonus to speed or attack keeps its bonuses), perhaps it will be similar here. It would keep them from becoming 100% obsolete
there wasn't any unit customisation in Civ IV, but i see what you mean all the same. Maybe it could work. although the more i think about it, the more i see leveling up and unit customisation as being mutually exlusive. One would have to be dumbed down considerably to fit iwth the other.
I'm more in favor of overall squad experience and dropping anything about officers all together. I think having to manage explicit officers on a somewhat different level than the squads themselves would result in more micromanagement than the feature would be worth to me. But based on the squad type I'd like there to be different 'upgrades' to choose from, other than just increased damage/hp. Kind of like the Civ IV system, actually, but better
I'd also like squads to be retrainable (while keeping experience bonuses), but if you retrain a squad into a completely different type of unit they will lose the 'experience bonuses' that aren't compatible with the new type of unit, as well as any associated experience. For example, if you retrain a veteran squad of infantry into bear cavalry, the following should happen:
First, let's say the Infantry Squad is Level 3. At level 2 the player picked the 'Cover' bonus (extra defense vs. archers), and at level 3 the player picked the 'Night-fighting' bonus. Night-fighting is available to all regular soldiers (only unavailable to special units like Fire Elementals, for obvious reasons), but Cover is only available to smaller units, precluding cavalry. So as a result, when you retrain the Infantry Squad into a Bear Cavalry Squad, they lose the 'Cover' ability and one level of experience, but retain the Night-fighting bonus. The result is a Level 2 Bear Cavalry Squad with the Night-fighting bonus.
I also like the Civilization 4 system. It's quite exciting when your units earn upgrades, and never becomes a chore. If we get a choice over how normal units upgrade instead of it being merely automatic, then it should be quick and easy.
Im for an auto increase of stats/HP/dam (not necessarily all at once), and a special ability option for which you have a choice at levelling but for which you have to pay some gold /mana.
What I would really like to see is that magic items are not only limited to heroes but that I can also give a magical items to a elite units. That should be easy to programme, would allow for a lot of customisation/specialisation & flavour to the units. With that in mind i would really like that the magic items can be also be handmade and that the ingredients would be handled via quests (want a banner of flight, slay a dragon...) but i am digressing
What about Officer Aura's that work for a squad, or groups of men. Each Aura upgrade could be either Offensive or Defensive in nature and selection could be a pick of either. There could be 3 levels and selections could be mixed 2Def. vs 1Off, or any combo therein depending on the units expertise. Pikemen vs Mounted Warriors vs Foot soldiers etc.
The group bonuses could be tied to the whole group and as a groups #'s are reduced in battle, the groups over-all bonuses get reduced accordingly. What this promotes would be maintaining group numbers via reinforcements, or if certain combo's don't work as planned, decimation of a squad would allow a new squad to be fielded and upgraded differently.
Officers would be added to groups but not be seperate once incorporated as to prevent Officer sniping. He would simply be the last to die and by then his Aura bonii would be basically negligible anyways.
What about an army-based officer (aka general) system instead of a squad-based one? In order to put together an army above a certain, small size, you need to recruit or appoint a general to lead it. Scouting and raiding parties, and patrols, for example could be small enough so that you don't need to worry about it. But anything that could actually be called an army would require an appointed general or leader, really whatever you want to call it.
There could be several ways to appoint a general, too, and the different ways could have pros and cons.
1) You could elevate one unit of the army to be the general (he wouldn't appear as a separate unit, it should be abstracted above that). Pros: units of the same type get an extra bonus Cons: different types of units get a smaller bonus2) You could send some abstract military administrator or whatever to be the general (likewise, wouldn't appear as a separate unit). No real pros and cons, everybody is treated equally in terms of bonuses and the like3) You could appoint a hero. This time, he would appear as a separate unit. Pros: would depend largely on the hero but should usually be a better general than the other two options Cons: can actually die in combat, plus other possible hero-dependent cons.
In all three cases the generals would improve with combat experience. I'm not sure if I like this idea or not, but I thought I'd throw it out there for others to kick it around
I wouldn't like to have to pay for a 'special ability' (which, if I understand you correctly, would be called promotions in Civ IV). They gain access to these abilities through experiencing actual combat, not by throwing money or magic (especially not magic) at them. I'm ambivalent about auto increasing stats, but I think being able to choose 'promotions' (again, Civ IV term for it) for squads when they get enough experience is a lot of fun. In Civ IV even when I had to choose dozens of promotions in a single turn during a large war, I never got tired of it - it was always exciting. SD could even go the extra mile and provide an interface to choose default promotions based on unit types, which we could choose to override.
I am sure it will be that way. We have pretty much confirmed how units are going to be created, and I can see no excuse to not include magical items that the channeler can create (or other people?) to be included. Since you know that if kept on schedule, the channeler will be able to cast 'create artifact' to create a flaming sword for (all in theory) 200 mana, and that would take about 4 turns to generate. So it would just add it (and deduct from mana production of the town I would assume) automatically and create a unit of swordsmen with flaming swords.
Given the game has tactical battles and a smart development team, I foresee the units and combat to basically be upgraded Total War mechanics:
* maybe a general in charge of the army with interesting bonuses based on his experience, and
* units gaining their own experience for some minor bonuses
Because of the tactical battles, I'm concerned about a couple of ideas I've seen on this thread:
* aura-bonuses. Go play Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts and let me know how much you like micromanaging British officers. Yes, they will follow units and provide bonuses, but if you want to be a pro and use them to their best, you've got to babysit them. Please no aura-bonuses for general/leader experience in Elemental. There's going to be enough things going on.
* 3 unit classes? Heroes are granted and regular units are obviously necessary. I'm not sure whether a general/leader/captain would add much, though. For a game aiming for magic and diplomacy and other things, it might make battles too micro-intensive.
When in doubt, keep it simple. I'm sure that with spells, customized units, heroes, items, etc., there will be no shortage of tactical or strategic options.
How can you be ambivalent of such an awesome idea? I mean, come on, your idea is made of win.
Back to topic: my opinions are as follows.
1) Squads come hand-in-hand with a squad leader and a flag carrier. This is purely cosmetic. Except for the flag carrier, which should help a lot when trying to find a specific squad.
2) The squad level up and get both a standard increase to attack/def/hp and a specific bonus chosen by the player. Available bonuses are determined by the player's technological and/or magical level and by the type of the unit (cavalry/infantry/ranged/caster etc.).
3) Non-fantastic units can be both re-equipped and re-trained. Re-equipping a unit is just changing their bronze swords to iron swords. The cost is just the new equipment that needs to be made (the old equipment get stored). Re-training should work exactly like pigeonpigeon described it.
4) Equipping squads with magical items should be a given. It's just expansive.
5) When a certain squad get rediclusely experianced (you know what I mean), it becomes an 'elite squad'. This is NOT a cosmetic change. Elite squads are halfway between heroes and standard units. They get a totaly different selection of bonuses, a name (The Gleaming Pikes or The Thunderhoof Squad) and most importantly, can be given 'special missions'. The special missions available depands on the unit's type and on the elite bonuses it recieved.
6) Special missions: actions that can be executed through the overland screen. It's like sending an elite squad on a special ops. mission. The squad must have the needed bonuses to execute the missions. Some missions may also fail.
Example #1) infiltrate an enemy city (during siege). When the battle starts, you will have the elite squad inside the enemy city. Requires: [Inflitrate], can only be executed by infantry.
Example #2) bodyguards, assigned to a specific overland character (heroes mostly). When the character is drawn to a fight, he will have the elite squad surrounding him and they will act as a single unit. Requires: N/A.
Example #3) Capture an overland character (big monster/hero/diplomat etc.). You can't expect a regular unit to capture a hero alive, but it is possible for an elite unit. Requires: [Capture], cavalry or infantry only.
I hope you understand what I mean with the idea of elite squads. Opinions?
P.S.: Maybe all caster units should be considered as elite squads?
I really like most of your ideas, this one in particular is great! I would worry that your infiltrating unit would get killed really quickly surrounded by enemy troops right at the beginning of the battle though. I mean they'd be the enemy's number one priority and within range to get swamped by all the defenders.. maybe if they could lay dormant and then you could activate them at a time of your choosing during the battle (at which point they spring forth from out of the sewers/take off their peasant disguises, whatever ) that would be great and give you an awesome tactical option That way you could introduce them at a time where they'd be most useful and not only help you win but actually have a chance of surviving (I think I'd be quite attached to my awesome infiltrating elite unit and not want them to die the first time they tried to use the ability).
* aura-bonuses."
Don't like the term "Aura"? Then read my post again with it removed. I do play CoH and it is quite a good game.
Ever unit has to be baby sat to some degree unless you just want to lose whole squads willy nilly.
Micro management is fact of life in RTS based games. Considering this game will have a CT aspect when played in its version of Multiplayer (Human vs Human), unit preservation will also be required, and as such will require micro.
Auto-resolution of battles is fine in some cases (when you will surely win outright). In other cases however, managing your forces, in something other than one large ugly incoherent blob, will require some of what you call, Babysitting.
But have you played Opposing Fronts? Those British officers really are a PITA. The British method of locking down territory is worse.
The whole setup is just needlessly complex and you have to order units to do things they should be smart enough to accomplish on thier own.
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