Hey Everyone
My name is Mario and I am 19 years old. I have been playing DotA for about 4 years now and I am good enough to call myself a Pro DotA player. I heard about Demigod from one of my friends and I have been waiting a while now for beta 2 to be released. I am looking for something different than Dota, so i do not want this game to be exactly like DotA, but i know that this game was based of alot of things from DotA. I would like to start off by saying that I think this game has alot of potential, but so far I am pretty disappointed (from the competetive aspect at least) with demigod so far. I am gonna try to not even focus on player balencing as of now, I think the main focus should be on overall balancing of the game on less conserned on specifics. I know that we are still in the beta phase and there is gonna be alot of changes, so I am going to list out the things that have stood out to me so far playing the game
First things I want to talk about is Gold and War Ranking. I think there needs to be more ways to differentiate the ways you obtain gold. As of now the only ways to obtain gold are from hero kills, gold mines, and the team gold that you get naturally which can be upgraded through currency on the citadal. Like I said before, I do not want this game to be exactly like DotA , but i think this needs to be fixed. In DotA you get gold from last hitting of creeps. I have seen comments from people on this forum that think this idea would not work in this game and I do not think it would ethier, but there has to be a way to get gold besides of the three things mentioned above inorder to add much needed depth to the gameplay. I think that Demigod should be more balanced between pushing and hero killing. I think that you should get more gold for the more enenmy towers that you have taken down. Whether it is a constant increase or just a large sum I think you should get more gold from pushing down towers inorder to put emphasis on tower defense.
I also dont like the idea of war rankings just increased over time and that they are always the same as the opponent. This leads to a lack of depth in gameplay and a relitively boring gameplay as well. I think that your War ranking should also increase as you take down enemy towers further increasing emphasis on tower defense add much needed depth. This way when you lose towers, your actually losing more than just positioning. And this will also give a much needed buff to the general heros and will also make them play more how they are suppose to and focus on pushing and bringing down towers and this will increase gold and war ranking for the team making them much more useful.
Other topic I would like to talk about is the Creep A.I.
I think there needs to be aggro on the creeps so when heros target other heros they are not just standing there attacking each other making the creeps more useful. As it stand right now all creeps including general creeps are pretty much useless until you get lvl 5 war ranking to get catapultasaruii. You pretty much can't win the game until you get those guy because your creeps dont push hard enough to take out towers. Which is fine, but not fine when you level up war ranking at the same pace which leads to stale gameplay and no competivitive competition whats so ever.
Also if the creeps drew aggro it would give a much needed buff to melee heros because they have absolutly no lane control at all against ranged demigods and it is pretty unfair. The aggro does not have to be exactly like DotA's Aggro system, but I feel it is very nesessacry to implement this.
Other than the overall gameplay issuses, there are other issues such as No Attack Move command so you can make your demigod move to a location and attack anything he sees on the way. I also think they need to implement the use of control groups so generals can keep better control of there units. Also the overally visibility of the Demigods I think needs to be fixed. You do not have to increase the size of the demigods because I know you guys want to keep the realistic aspect of design. But maybe if you added some glow or a larger aura to them just so there more noticable. And I think that you should be able to use actions on the minimap. It makes it alot easier to teleport and move around if you dont actually have to be looking at the space that you want to move so you can still keep an eye on the battle and move away from it at the same time. It would also be nice if the minimap removed the dots for the creeps as they died instead of as there corpeses go away.
I know this was very long but i feel that this game needs alot more improvement and if anyone wants to debate any of my points I will gladly debate in case i didnt explain anything clearly, but want i really want to be able to do is talk with the developers of the game directly. I am not sure if they respond to posts on the forums or who the developers are, but I would like to have a conversation with them to ask some addition question on where the game is going. I will continue to play the game and I will try to post any other things that stick out to me and try to give more suggestions.
All in all in terms of looks and design this game is great, in terms of competion and depth I am very disappointed so far.
P.S. Why is there no spell check and why cant you copy paste..They should fix that as well LOL
Nice post, but I disagree that "melee heroes need a buff". They're currently the strongest heroes in the game, and most items focus on buffing melee heroes. Why exactly do they need a buff? -_0
I was playing 2v1 (I was the 1), was using the Rook, and completely devastated the enemy team. They ended up calling me "OP" and quit. I don't see how that needs to be stronger
Also, I don't think the game should be all about killing towers, because then it gives heroes like Regulus (who outranges the towers) an unfair advantage, as if you leave Reg alone he can kill all the towers on the enemy side with little difficulty.
I agree though that this game needs a lot, especially when it comes to replayability. Creep AI I don't really care about, that's way down on my personal list of things that need to be fixed.
I like your ideas.
Well Mainly my concern is regarding competitive play with organized teams down the road. When you have an organized team with an actually plan and teamwork, the melee heros are going to be out matched with the current Creep AI. My biggest problem with this game so far would be the War Ranking Leveling up at the same time and since there is no last hitting involved, there is no alternatives really accumulating more gold than your opponent besides hero kills. And that alone puts the generals at a severe disadvantage. So I merely just gave possible solutions to help balance the game and put assassins and generals on equal ground.
And that is fine that regulus can out range the tower. In DotA there is the sniper who also does the same. At this point I dont think we should be concerned about specific characater balancing, I think game mechanics themselves as a whole need to be balanced before you even start with characters
I agree with you, and I also think that there main concern should be making sure the game has the depth needed for skilled players to distinguish themselves. In other words, they need to make sure this game will be competitive, not just casual fun (but still casual fun for those that just want that, obviously).
I can't help but agree on just about all of your points.
As far as the war ranking they used to have it so what ever team had captured one of the flags was 1 war rank ahead of the other team. I thought that was a nice way to add a little depth but I have yet to see that back in the newer maps. If they had a few of these flags on the map that could make it quite interesting since war rank determins strength of enemies coming outa the portal and what you can buy from the citidal.
Right now its hard to judge how competitve this game is due to muliplayer issue people are having where some people cant join and only playing the AI is alway different than playing real people.
If you were playing a real game with real people against a competitive team I'll tell you how competitive it would be.
You would be playing against an all Regulus team with Snipe , Maim , and Range Increase and no one on your team would be able to Level Up in the lane.
Regulus > all and by a large margin. Unless this game gets a huge makeover, The best demigod will always be who ever can kill the best and do the most damage, and as soon as you get to level 6 war ranking you just buy Catapultasarii and the game is over. Even if they added Flags with War ranking it would just be a fight for those flags and who ever gets level 6 war ranking wins. Thats not really adding depth to the game. I am not sure if the developers come on these forums or not, but i would really like to talk to one of them to really see where this game is headed. As it stands now it doesnet matter how they balance the heros when it will always be hero killing and lane control dominating the early game and tower siege dominating the end of it.
Completely agree with you. You are commenting on some things I was trying to point out in my Regulas Eberus rant. Right now the game is the same from level 1-20. I feel that no matter what happens in the game player actions have no direct impact on the result. The death toll is what 17 seconds on mean. You die so what. You buy a 100 dollar tp and teleport back to your lane. You don't really lose that much gold (if any?) and the game continues like nothing happened. Demigod needs the game to have some kind of focus. Right now heroes are the most powerful aspect of the game from start to finish. Why even have creeps then. They are really quite useless I find. Torch Bearer and Erebus destroy them almost instantly. Their purpose needs to redefined. Have them be dangerous to players early on or something. Their only purpose seems to be giving experience. Other than that I haven't found them very useful. I kill them to level up. Other than that they don't really have anything against me. They even ignore you when you attack them near your citadel. In fact, I've had hordes of creeps run right by me to fight some other creeps. Wouldn't I be their focus? Shouldn't they want to kill the Demigods? Naturally, Demigod is about Demigods, and currently I think this mindset is the problem.
Your definately right on the players have no direct impact on the game at all. And I agree with you that heros are the most powerful aspect of the game, but even if your hero was 1000 times stronger all i need to do is upgrade my creeps and get catapults and I would win the game. The entire early game is pretty much meaningless. If your up against competitivev players the only two things they would buy would be mass potions and creep upgrades. With all of these options availible to us it is really a shame, but options are only options if they are a usable strategy.
And as far as the useless A.I., all they need to do is configure the aggro and it will make them a whole lot better. I thought that this game was suppose to be geared toward the competitive audience. I think the whole foundation of the competition in this game is flawed. I mean from the competitive mindset this game is a joke with absolutely 0 depth and I know there gonna make changes, but I feel that this game is fundamentally wrong and is going to lead to a pretty boring experience even when all of the bugs are fixed.
And it does make me question the true mindset of the developers themselves.
Which is why I want to speak with at least someone who can make some changes.
I mean I got like 20 people waiting to move from DotA to come to this game if it was any good.
I know that the developers said that they drew inspiration from DotA, but I seriously doubt they were any good at it, or really know why it was so successful for all these years and still played to this day.
You're my hero. Seriously, these are things I've been thinking and posting about but not many people seem to get it.
Biggest problem I had so far this build was finding Erebus or Oak hiding among their minions. I agree that some easy means of spotting the Demigod would be nice.
Personally my greatest problem from a competitive standpoint is that full team games last long even on a fast rush. Steamrolling the other team shouldn't take twenty minutes. A really good back and forth game shouldn't break an hour.
Easiest way to fix this would be to ramp up creeps, and make giants practically unstoppable beings of base destroying power!
I'd also would like more micro on the generals, but lets shorten the game length first.
The only major criticism I have is that virtually every example mechanic you've given is slippery slope, i.e. the losing team loses, rather than trying to balance out the teams to prolong gameplay and make it a more entertaining game.
Not sure what you mean when you say the losing team loses
And a Side note this game really is not like dota at all.. Its more like Hero Wars (a different WC3 mode). It is almost exactly like hero wars where you can upgrade to better troops, purchase unit controlled troops, increase the weapons and armor on your troops. It is also played on all flat land. Hero Wars is just a casual game and is not played competitively at all.. The more I play this game the less hope for competitive games I get. But I am also getting different ideas to try and help save that and turn this around.
Oh, mentioning flat land reminds me that this game could really use some elevation...would be far more interesting if maps involved differences in elevation, use of higher ground etc.
Ya I think adding elevations and different fog of wars will allow for some jukes.
The thing is every game could be a "competative" game, it's not about how "competative" a game is, but how popular it is. Every AoS style map (from Warcraft3) could be played just as competatively as Dota. The masses just picked Dota and soon it became what it is today.I agree with you on the catapult stuff, you really need those, but saying "the players have no direct impact on the game at all" is completely stupid, early game you should try to level as fast as you can gather as many gold as you can and try to stop your enemy from doing the same. Once you get the catapults you should start the tower hunting.What you want it seems is another Dota. This is not Dota nor Hero Wars. If it ever becomes as elitist as Dota it'll loose much of its fanbase I'm sure.And about buying potions and creep upgrades, you'll be whiped off the face of the earth just by one enemy Tourch Bearer.All this competition talk makes you forget what games should really be about, entertainment. Just look what C&C3 became, it was made to be a "competative" game...most of the C&C fanbase agrees it was a complete disaster. Devolopers should focus on the game being fun, then we can speak about competition.
DotA didn't become so popular because it was made to be competative, it became popular because it was entertaining and you could just hop in a game and enjoy it without much brainwork. Then it became competative because it was popular.That's why I said that Demigod first needs to be entertaining then it can be competative. I'm not against competition, I'm just trying to show you why DotA is still being played.It's just like with WoW, WoW didn't become so popular because it was hardcore PvP, but because it was easy to learn, and did not require days of learning how to play effectively. Yet if you want to be a hardcore PvPer you'll need months of PvP training.Edit: And by focusing on competition rather then entertainment they'd doom the game. Don't get me wrong but not even 90% of the DotA players are enough to make this game worthwile without non-competative players. The devs should first focus on sales then focus on making the game last years. A game that a couple of players can play for years without getting bored is not a great investment for the devs.
lol? I mean i know thats what the company is thinking but why are you supporting this? lol Are secretly part of there marketing team?
I can see that your a casual player, but COMPETITION = ENTERTAINMENT
But anyway lol I am not even going to aruge about this point. just basic casual vs competitive disagreements. The only thing I can say is that the Devs would DEFINATELY disagree with you on that point, but at this point your entitled to your opinion.
And don't get me wrong the game needs to support both the Casual and Competitive environment inorder for longevity. You need both in the community in order for the game to suceed imo and not just one or the other.The way I see it the casuals already got what they wanted in the game with the amazing design and graphics. If they just work out the bugs I think the casual player will be satisfied.
Yeah by reading what you have said I tihnk you have some points but don't forget that this isn't DotA. This is a completely different game. Not the same game engine or anything. I agree with your fog of war idea. They should modify it to different elevations as you said. I think what the game will lack is variety. When I think about how I can still play DotA after all this time, on the same map and the same gameplay I realize I still like it is because of it's variety. You have over 90 heroes you can choose from and it always makes things different. Think about it, what sucks about that though is that some of their spells are the same, which is okay in some cases but some heros are almost the same such as like stun hero. They are all very similiar. I think what would make Demigod an even better game would be to add variety like that. More Demigods to choose from and try to make each one different.
I like the gameplay options the game has though. I like the idea of having the choice to play a super quick game if I want to. You can have income increased, start high level, etc. But the gamespeed seems to be an issue. The game is choppy. Not going to lie. My computer can handle and and I've even watched my room mate play it on his super beefy computer and the game doesn't seem smooth at all. But it gets REALLY bad if you increase the game speed. Also the Fast gamespeed is rediculous I think because you can't even tell what is going on. If you sneeze and look back at your screen you have leveled like 3 times. Then you blink and the game is over.
It is possible that the choppiness of the game may just be both mine and my room mates computers. I know they can handle the game but maybe there is something else going wrong. But I haven't read up on anything to see if thats an ongoing and known issue.
Anyways, I'm rambling now. But yeah thats my opinion on a portion of this game. But I can see it being an amazing game that I can enjoy playing for a long time. For now, I like it.
~Hamilton
The problem I have with DotA isn't the elitist environment but the awful user friendliness. As a general rule, those people are elitist for a reason and I don't really have a problem with that. What I don't like is that I feel like I have to go to school to figure out how to play the game. Coming from a fan of the notoriously complicated X Universe series, that's saying something.
Anyway, I do agree with many of your points. The War Rank and Gold all come fairly linearly and there is little you can do to get ahead in the current balance. The War Rank slowly increases over time at the same speed as the enemy and gold is obtained through mines and killing Demigods. I don't think either of these factors is really a bad thing, but they sound more like part of the foundation than the full gameplay. Unfortunately, that is currently the full gameplay.
So what can we do about it? You specifically mentioned changing how towers worked. I agree that something should be done here. Many times I have pushed for a tower through a very difficult battle and felt cheated when it finally fell. I mean, sure, it isn't shooing at me anymore, but I didn't feel like I had accomplished something and really aided the team. I get to go forward a little, but I'm not going to get to another flag or make a meaningful attack on their base, so how does that extra plot of land help me? You could give people a large gold bonus for killing a tower, but that just sounds rather bland. More on this in a moment.
I think the War Rank is currently downright wrong. The fundamental system is flawed. Both teams progress at a set rate through a series of ten ranks that are always equal. What's the point? If you're going to be lame about it, why don't you just make each creep wave spawn with one more guy or something? I propose turning your War Rank into a full fledged secondary currency next to gold. It would be used for all Citadel purchases (possibly in addition to gold) and its current job of upgrading creep waves. Gold would be for each individual Demigod, and War Rank would be for the team as a whole. I'm not sure if it should be split among the Demigods or pooled together, but I think the concept has potential.
This would have several interesting effects. Most notably would be that the teams wouldn't be side by side in troop improvements. Things like Catapultasaurus rushing, Giant rushing, and Minotaur spamming would be introduced. It would enable a variety of different team strategies beyond just tactical point-and-click abilities. You could tech (focus on gold production), turtle (focus on tower upgrades), or rush (focus on creeps). You could go for quickly attempting to get large units onto the field, or you could focus on improving the smaller units you have before expanding upward. Obviously, there would always be the balanced path in addition to the extremes. Those precious catapultasaurii would be a risky venture instead of a surefire thing, as they could be balanced to be glass cannons. They won't really help you at all unless you're actually pushing against the towers, so if you need to be securing flags and territory you would be better off to buy improvements for your Minotaurs. Delay too long and they'll start stomping you with giants. You would have to make strategic decisions in order to triumph.
But this still doesn't solve the problem of lame and boring War Rank. It still only goes up with time, and even then at the same rate as the other guy. You could always make an upgrade for it or add flags, but that's not really special. Now I would like to go back to the towers. These are not symbols of other Demigods that you attack and destroy, but a defender of the entire other team. Doesn't it follow that by attacking something that represents the enemy team as a whole you should be rewarded by gaining something that aids your team as a whole? I propose that War Rank would be primarily decided by how much territory you captured and how many enemy towers you claimed. Destroying a tower before catapultasaurii appeared would actually aid your team's struggle. It would put a value on the fairly unimportant exterior towers and it would give you targets other than the Citadel to strike at if you make an assault on the enemy base. Currently it's all or nothing, but having smaller targets would make base assaults useful at all stages of the game.
Imagine if, for example, every tower you destroyed would allow you to purchase a citadel upgrade. That early scuffle wouldn't just be for the experience, but you would really be gunning for the enemy tower. If you can take out that forward tower, you can upgrade to including Archers in your forces. Isn't that a worthwhile goal? Obviously just a rough example, but I hope you follow what I'm saying.
The one obvious flaw with everything in this thread is what DeadMG pointed out about the slippery slope. This is present in almost all games, and there is very little you can do about it. Everything in here makes comebacks harder. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, the winners should win and the losers should lose. However, many people have a problem with games that are decided in the first few minutes and then drag on for half an hour. The whole concept is slightly paradoxical. On one hand, the winning team should be rewarded for playing better and have their effective actions yield relative results. On the other hand, you don't want one or two effective moments to give one team a decisive advantage over the other. This really just comes down to balance. The slope will be there in every game, but how deadly it is depends on how well things are balanced. I think that once an effective system is implemented, it can be modified so that the slippery slope is slightly less steep. However, at the moment we lack an effective system, so developing one should be the first priority.
I am curious to hear what others think about this post. Also, Mario, what exactly do you propose we do about everything? I honestly just thought this up on the spot, so I fully expect it to be full of flaws . Perhaps, at the very least, it can be fuel for practical discussion.
Demigod has a flawed design behind it and GPG is doing their best to somehow make it into a game. They won't be able to use "well it's a beta" defence behind it either. If the release date isn't pushed back I don't see this game being polished enough or having a strong idea to ever be consistently played at a top level for a long period of time. You can say that the game isn't done yet but from these betas/engine tests we are getting a good glimpse at what the ideas behind this game and what we should "expect" from a final product. This just seems like a large problem that they can't conquer.
Catering to a casual audience never works with RTS. RTS has a terrible casual audience that only plays single player or plays an easy-mode version of the game. An RTS should be made with the competitive aspects being the major focus. If a game succeeds as being well-made and supported there will be a long lasting fan base and some casual gamers might convert, some might not. If not, they will just be playing money maps and maybe follow the pro scene if it's easy on the spectator. SC: Brood War is truly a one of a kind example as it has a very large pro scene, large casual community, and has a very large spectator community. It was a game made with a well thought out design and they followed through. Demigod is not being well thought-out from what I've seen. Of course this can change but what GPG needs is time to fix this and with a February release that will not be happening.
Edit: One more point, people have expectations for games to be easier and are completely turned off by challenges. It is disgusting how people will instantly turn away from games because it's too hard for them to learn. Of course there is an easy-to-learn hard-to-master but that just doesn't work in the genre. Much easier to pull off with a Counter-Strike fps etc.
I agree that there are alot of gameplay issues but IMHO it isnt just a matter of tweaking certain aspects, I think the majority of this game needs to be taken back to the drawing board. It pains me to say it but this game just has no replay value it was fun at first but after a few games you realize there is no depth whatsoever.
I just played a 3v3 game with myself and 5 AI. We controlled the extra portals from start to finish, at the end of the game my team was lv 8,9, and 14 opposing team was all maxed out at 25 the only thing the extra creeps did was provide xp fodder for the other team. We eventually won in a slow, boring grind in which I had zero effect on the game as I was always instantly sniped by a reglus that was 11 levels higher than me. No game that dares call itself "strategic" should reward one side for inferior play in which they do no capture extra objectives and have less troops. Yes we eventually won but had those AI been real players they would have easily used their combined level advantage of over thirty levels to wipe us out.
I know these were AI players and some of you will say that I just suck at this game or something but its definatley the game and not me. I honestly think this game could contend for game of the year and be played competitvley ten years from now, but thats only if some serious changes are made.
Exactly. People have talked about a game being accessible which leads to it being popular. This is true - any good game needs to be accessible so it doesn't turn people away with the first impression. However, in order for a game to be long lasting, it has to have depth. That means, there has to be a lot of room for improvement. People who have played the game for a long time and who have practiced a lot need to be able to make use of their developed skills and knowledge. If the game is shallow, it will fail just as surely as if it has an extremely steep learning curve.
When it comes to RTS, a game will never be competitive if it is catered to a casual audience. It will always be little more than a single player "campaign" game that some people play on LAN with their friends. No matter how popular a shallow game may become, it can never be competitive if there is a very small margin between the average player and the experienced, skilled player. A competitive game has to have a very high skill ceiling so players are able to push each other to get better and better.
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