As far as i play, every game i saw was won or lost with minefields.
I'm a vasari player mostly (advent if not vas), and my initial rush is now very simple: 3 mil labs, ruiner prototype, 2-3 ruiners and fill a gravity well with mines, repeat at each world. Unbeatable.
So what i might suggest (as other did too) is that mines would not stay permanently but only 5-10 min or so on.
One also suggested that you could have a given number of permanent mines (but then how to decide wich mine will stay permanently with a ruiner forever laying mines with an automated path), other mines layed past that number would decay in 5-10 min.
Same for homing mines wich can be spammed with advent carrier.
I might suggest that scouts + flak could be THE anti mine combo, but scouts should have a larger zone of dephasing mines, and flak have a special bonus against mines.
Or, create a new ship design, a mine remover ship, with tough shields and armor but almost no "real" fighting strenght.
A consequence of mine spamming is that the game get very laggy when someone enter in such a minefield (try to spam mines around a sun , or go to a "prudent" vasari player who spammed mines on his homeworld since he got the ruiner prototype).
Mines past a certain number, wich i'm not suprised of, doesnt display all at the same time. And mining a sun is very cheap and effective too due to the sun AM regen... I could suggest that mines around a sun would only stay for half the time that could be set for "normal" mines to be decayed, due to solar winds...
But i strongly feels that mines shouldnt be allowed to stay permanently. Space is space after all, and those little explosives boxes might explode just with micro roaming asteroids boucing on them, so they couldnt stay forever in space...
If mines wouldnt stay permanently i might suggest not to hardcode a given "death time" for a mine, but a randomly chosen number between like 5-15 min to simulate those roamings micro roids hitting or not mines in minefield.
I could also suggest that a mine who blew up could make blow up other nearby mines but it would be rather dangerous then (like domino's falling ) ie: a ship enter in a gravity well, trigger a mine who blew, blewing up then another, ect, killing the dude fleet who was entering from another phase lane So how fun it might be i dont think this could be a good idea ^^
I think a limit on a mine field is a bit riduclous. I always had trouble with that episode of SGA with Atlantis flying through space and a micro asteriod cut Zelenka in the leg... Asteriod belts aren't nearly that dense. They're more like small clusters of rocks, not a long belt. And a weak shield can hold off any small rock, especially since you'd be dumb to put you mines inside the asteriod cluster. Mines are simple to mantain. Make sure there aren't any faults in their electronics, which requires a light frigate, and then move on to the next one.
I also think that the amount of mines laid makes it terribly frustrating, especially when entering another system with mines surounding you. I think some sort of mine clearing ship or a type of fighter is needed to clear the mines for safe passage.
I fully agree with the need for a more effective minesweeper. I'd even fill a capitol ship slot in my fleet to get that advantage. I just tried going up against a Vasari AI opponent who apparently decided to mine one of its bases to a fare-thee-well, and it took over an hour of gameplay just to clear half the minefield; this was caused by a combination of difficulty in dephasing them due to the size of each scout's range, and targeting/destroying them once dephased. Granted, building them takes 1000 credits, but still... I'd be happier with cheaper mines that were easier to dispose of. Also, there seems to be some problems with attacking dephased mines; my units still refuse to recognize them as a legitimate target if I try to explicitly order an attack. Lastly, weren't the mines supposed to be invisible until they get revealed by scouts? I could see them just fine even without scouts, but just couldn't attack and destroy them.
I noticed this as well it seems that they are aren't decloaked all the time while in range of the scout, but switch back and forth between invisible to the ships. They should be completely visible all the time while the scout's sensors are in range.
advent can effectively and quickly clear a mine field with ILLUMINATORS ability to clone themselves...simply get 10-20 illuminators offworld, clone them on the world before the mined world, and run the clones in and suicide them into the mines. clears a nice path to the planet for your cap ship to go thru, as for the ruiners that are there that is a diffrernt issue. the miner should probably be made of paper, but until it is I recommend bombers.
That's a thing though, we shouldn't have to spend money for suicides.
i will have to go 100% on your idea. just as hw had it and of course since few of IC did had a chance to work on hw, why not implement fighters to be usefull for mine clearing or maybe a hot key function to selected frigates or fighters to target incoming mines or mines that are placed all over the planet. Varsher, you get a karma for this one bro. good solution.
edit: i can't find that karma button
Also having the Vasari mine layer should have an auto-patrol option similar to the scouts but only for the system that it is in.
I also agree that the scouts range needs to be dramatically increased, and all ships should activly avoid the mines
It pisses me off to see my fleet run headstrong into the mine field to attack a mine in the middle of the damn field and ignore te ones on the perimeter.
Also the fighter should be more effective against a mine than a bomber.
EDIT:
also teh advent strike mines should have an auto patrol as well - but really all strike craft should have an auto patrol...
It takes time to get a ship ready for combat, but strike craft already patroling around the planet would have a higher chance to engage before the rest of the fleet moves in.
Mines are simply shit...
I have to be frank about this since I love this game so much...
Currently, as they are, they simply resemble pile of steaming excrement and not much more than that.
Mines need some MAJOR rethinking and if that fails they simply need to be removed...
If anything kills this game it will be MINES by blowing right into our gaming faces via ruined yet once fantastic game called Sins of a Solar Empire!
Quote me on this if you wish
[quote who="-=XX=-Nephilim" reply="10" id="1983772"]
Mines are simply shit...I have to be frank about this since I love this game so much...Currently, as they are, they simply resemble pile of steaming excrement and not much more than that.Mines need some MAJOR rethinking and if that fails they simply need to be removed...If anything kills this game it will be MINES by blowing right into our gaming faces via ruined yet once fantastic game called Sins of a Solar Empire!Quote me on this if you wish [/quote]
I agree with this. As of now, they require too much micro managing. It takes the fun out of the game, and ruins the balance of offense/defense with silly scouting and avoiding tactics. I can no longer simply send a fleet in and let them have at it while I focus elsewhere on the map. All battles become a major concern because scouts have to be puhed at the front of an entire armada to see the mines.
Simple solution for the mines and also the "running the starbase blockade" issues:
Realistically, if a scout can fit a little sensor on board to detect a mine, why cant this tech be fitted onto a cap ship or cruiser? I believe that all mines should BE DETECTABLE. From the start. They should be a defense buffer. Not a major part of your defense.
Fleets that jump in should have to shoot their way through the field, slowing them down. Anyone that tries to run a starbase/defense blockade would be forced to hit the mines, or slow down to shoot them. This would give the defending forces time to inflict damage and even deter the advance. Mines can then be spammed all you want. The homing mines would still work well, as the offensive forces would have to be quick at destroying them, lest the get hammered by incoming mines.
This solution is the closest thing to returning the gameplay to what it used to be. Buffer your defenses, don't make them completely useless with the current mine setup.
If you think about it mines dont HAVE to explode, they should just deny the space their in. Enemy ships would SEE them and avoid. You would not get the booms but the mines would serve their purpose to deny space and funnel ships toward your defenses.
There would be of course a limit..and this would solve the mine clearing problem. Also without exploding you solve the "why arent friendly ships get hurt also?"( by their own mines) just a thought.....
So far... Im NOT enjoying Entrenchment and how overpowered mines are (specially the ones the Vasari can create outside their own gravity well). It's really out of hand how powerless you feel when they attack your world and in less than a minute you have mine spam all around you
It's also retarded how you bring your fleet in with scouts, and they just SIT in the edge of the gravity well, while the rest of your fleet rush to attack BLIND and through the mine field. They better fix all these issues before release, or i'll most likely stop playing Sins
I'll just chime in by saying that the Revelation Battlecruiser's Clairvoyance ability should reveal mines for its duration.
My only complaint is, once my scouts see the mines - why can't we target them and destroy them
Seriously folks, you do understand the concept of beta testing, right? We're trying to see what works, what doesn't, and figure out how to make it work. Ultimatums and doomsaying is not very helpful here.
As mines go, I think it's widely accepted that changes need to be made, particularly with Vasari mining enemy wells and Ruiners being used basically as suicide bombers.
I think that they need to be made more tactical in nature. As a primarily TEC player, I think that the "blob of mines" method is very inneffective. Mines should be used as barriers, so we need to be able to define those barriers more accurately. This would help eliminate some of the micromanaging involved as well.
Next, the AI needs to be modified to make ships take all necessary measures to avoid minefields unless they are specifically ordered to enter them. No more ships making wide turns right through a minefield. That's just dumb.
For TEC, mines are fairly expensive, but there should still be some sort of cap to prevent you from filling the entire well with them, but that cap should still be pretty high, otherwise you won't be able to build effective barriers either.
For mine-clearing, I think that using the scout as a spotter is still a useful approach, but the problem is in the micromanagement currently needed to get anything done. Currently I can see that scouts do spot the mines, and they do seem to convey that information to the fleet, as I've seen the fighters start attacking and clearing the mines. I've seen Cobalts attack the mines as well, so some of this is working. We may need more AI adjustments to maybe make mines more of a high priority target, and scouts may need a larger detection range, but I think the current system is fundamentally sound. Mines might need lower HP as well. I don't think it should take so many shots to destroy one.
That doesn't address the problems with Vasari or Advent mines. I'm about to start a new game now, so I'll have to experiment with those as well. Remember that the solutions may be different for each side. We don't necessarily need blanket changes to all mines.
I disagree on this. They shouldn't be a hard barrier. If they don't explode, then they aren't mines, they're an invisible, impenetrable wall. The enemy should always have the option to go through a minefield and take their lumps if that's what they choose. It could be a sensible thing to do if the other defenses are very tough, or the person created only a very thin minefield.
Ugh I dispise these mines!
First there needs to be some realistic limit on how many mines can be in a gravwell. If there is right now, I haven't been able to find it yet.
Next, if a planet is destroyed and there is no supporting starbase, the mines should very rapidly self-destruct (no more than 5 minutes). It's realistic, game balancing, and gets these damn things out of the game making my computer stop crawling.
Rethink how mines are going to be detected and destroyed. Detection range for scouts should be longer, and ships shouldn't charge headlong into stuff as a result. Either stop and destroy or go around if they can see them.
Here are a couple thoughts that I really think could be fun:
The idea is to require the following be balanced:
Mines should be an annoyance and a way to slow the game down defensively (not slow down my computer) without becoming so frustrating as to want me to quit the game.
BTW - Having an option to turn OFF mines, just like we can do for pirates, would be nice. I'm serious. They are THAT unfun and THAT much of a burden on my computer.
Thunder Road: you say the mines slow your computer down a lot...
I can't offer any alternatives, because the same thing happens with my independent code for mines, with 400-500 mines, my alternate code grinds the game to a halt as well... ...however when used sparsely, they can still destroy an enemy armada if you set the drift-speed of the mines to 1000, and if they regenerate, you don't have to worry about replenishing the fields...
anyway, I believe Entrenchment is the best choice for mines, as the developers surely coded the mine ability in the same way that they made the Planet-Colonization ability, or the Phase-out ability...
I'm certain they made the leanest-meanest code for the mines...
all games with mines need mine destroyers or disablers, its just the triangle of war, now, if the mine layer was also a mine destroyer, that would work. whatever ship destroys mines must have a certain amount of immunity to their damage though, like say it would have extremely low hp but also have a huge amount of shield or just immune to mine damage altogether (thats how modern mine destroyers work) and only light weapons due to the HUGE amount of armor needed.
maybe there could be a cap on the amount of mines based on how big the map is
As a trial, before the refund issue was fixed, a friend and I experimented with how many mines you could put down in a gravity well. He finally gave up at 750 patterns and I never made it past 200. Needless to say this is simply rediculous as you can't even see your own units in the gravity well. There needs to be a cap on the number of mines deployable. This will force the defending player to be careful about how they deploy them and will keep playability in line with what SINs is. My personal thought on the cap would be 10 patterns for TEC and an equivilant number for the Advent and Vesari. Also they need to be tied in with the tactical slots of a system (possibly add another tactical slot overall to each system). It's only reasonable since the Statbase sits outside the slotting system.
The idea of minesweeper ships and fighter craft is a good one as well. Make the minesweeper a mod of the scout, and you only have to add the code for the additional function rather than come up with an entirely new ship.
Helioforge: I don't dispute that the code is lean. My computer crawls if there are lots of fighter squadrons too - I've been trying not to avoid upgrading my system, but I think it's getting time
But given the current state of mines, I'd really rather turn them off entirely. We have a group of about 5 of us that usually play 5v5 against the computer and we dispise the mine elements in the game. Finding ways to clear them that add strategic elements to the game, limiting the number allowed in a grav well so that you have to be a little more careful about where you put them, and having them self-destruct when the planet and starbase are no longer present to support them would address a lot of these issues. But even then, having them off is a nice option.
Of course, there's a whole host of problems with starbases, but that's another thread.
I personally like that scouts can see mines, it makes them useful the entire game. I really think their sighting range needs increasing though, double. If they destroyed mines too, that would be great; Flak seems to be made to order to destroy mines, and it would make them more useful finally (after they finish off SC, they usually go lay in hammicks and drink lemonade the rest of the game).
At this point in the Beta, I can't (and won't) play against Varasi, because the mine spam is insane, and it brings my computer to a crawl (not to mention, I can't see anything due to every mine having it's own icon in a well and in the empire tree too).
IMO a setting "Mines/No Mines" (like with pirates) is really important in the future too.
But, as stated above, this IS the beta, so we are suppose to find all these things, and talk them out. . . All we have to do is "complain", then we sit back, put our feet up, and wait for the devs to fix it all
ive got to agree, with almost all of the above, but also remaining aware that this is a beta and we are testing it for a purpose. There is no way that the guys who brought us this brilliant game will want us all running away from it because of a few teething problems always inherent in a Beta. The developers will here our cries of oh crap there are THAT many mines here and make the changes neccessary (and if previous patches are any indication they will be sorted before we even finish this discussion.
I dont mind the idea of mines, infact i welcome it, however, i still feel that we also need a dedicated minesweeper in the fleet. And and active mines/no mines button was something i was going to suggest too, but it has already been stated.
Cheers
xwfalc
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