First, let me start this post by clearning few things.
What is entrenchment; from what ive learned, it is consolidation of defensive possition. Hill, fort, plain or planet.
Now that we know this, lets move to the focal point of this: Starbase.
What is starbase? It is base so big that it can be mistaken for moon. (in before 'That is no moon!')
What purpose shuld it serve? To consolidate favorable defensive position and provide forward outpost. (plases where you can not normaly build)
Why shuld one build it? To add lots of tactical signifigance for low cost in are that you plan or allredy have held for long ---> this is realy important!
What prevents using defeses as offense in general concept? Despite low cost, long build time and inability to relocate reduces any fortification for defense and defence only. (outpost aside)
What makes defensive line worth plasing? To create line which enemy must eithr fight or find other way araund. Moving troughtit is not an option. (like Maginot line, germans didint move trought it, they moved araud it. In sins, you can run pass any defense and go ravage inner worlds.)
Thats how starbases shuld be.
How they are now
Fast consturction time. Enables them be rapidly deployed to hostile or contested area.
Hig cost.
Inability to actualy defend anything. You have option to ignore it and do hit and run to the inner sphere.
Total lack of phase inhibitor. Star base shuld serve as whole graw well super phase inhibitor. (900% to time) Comitting any and all assault forces to fight or search way araund it.
TEC and Advent starbases immobile. This turns them into little more than glorified turrets.
Too little Hitpoints at hig levels. Fully upgradet starbase thats tiltted towards combat shuld be HARD to take down.
How to fix starbases to be more 'entrenchy' like?
Long build time. These contruction are for areas that you plan, or have alredy held long, its not some 'oh, lets just slap a big turret here' thing, its a DEATH STAR'S cousin. Starbases are the things that draw your empires border lines! Here be dragons, marzas and Siddy... and here something else!
Low cost. Constructing starbase shuld not be decision of weither gimpping your fleet or not. Long build time (10 minutes or more) will offset cheapness. Upgrades shuld be fast and expensive, since the frame is allredy up and running.
Actual use as a defensive unit. Right now starbase is a turret. Add a phase inhibitor that is more powerful than the building. Remove all enemy mines for the system were you have starbase automatically*. And scale the HP increase with upgrades properly.
Also all starbases shuld be mobile in graw well, period.
**Add the vasari starbase ability to phase betwean phase gates.
And bound the starbase to planet. So as long the starbase you build on planet X lives, you annot build new starbase on that planet. This will prevent phasing starbases in system Y and then building new from system X.
* mines shuld have an expiration time on all other graw-wells, exept the one you have starbase in - also, there shuld be maximum limit starbase can support un-expirable mines, 40 or so, all mines over the limit will expire after 5(??) or so minutes*
**maybe add this ability, the ability to phase starbase, even betwean phaaaaaaaaaasegates, will imbalance vasari defence.**
PS: Add TEC starbase ability to fuse with lvl 6 marza, creating a giant pink SPACE GUNDAM ROBOT THAT WILL RAPE YOU ALL!
And name it SUPER SPACE PAWNBOT 9001! Thats over 9000!
Good post. And I do agree with you on the general aspect of this. The starbases are not to be feared as they currently are (and how we all hoped they would be).
The problem with this is that the game is overridden with planets. You have almost no choice to have a true "outpost" on the frontier. Usually you're always 1 jump away from another planet; be it your's or an allies, or an enemy's.
One thought I had *and this was spur of the moment as I was reading Siddy's post, would be to make more uncolonizable wells. And then when you place a starbase, it goes in the middle where a planet would normally be. And then from there you have a limited selection of defensive stuctures to place in the well around the base as well as upgrading the base. Essentially you're making a place that was not good for anything good for a defensive hold.
Go ahead and shoot this idea down if you want. I haven't thought it all through and it'd change a lot about the game of course. Just throwing it out there.
I would have to disagree. You can't 'run past' the defences like a starbase. I tried just this thing in a multiplayer game with a friend. You set up a base... the key is to put it near the exit lanes to the inner planets, then you slap the enhancement that slows or stops phase jumping. It had that, a hanger upgrade and a defense upgrade. I watched a starbase just eat a fleet for breakfast. The fleet was pretty sizable (3 bars on the zoomed-out view of the gravity well) and the survivors of the blockade run were only 5 ships, none of them heavy which seemed to be priotized by the starbase as best targets. (there wasn't a capital ship in the fleet, so I don't know how that might turn the tide, but there were some heavy cruisers)
They're not that useless!
In my latest game a starbase held off a massive assault by practically the entire fleet of one of my enemies. I'd mined the other end of the space lane so it couldn't simply be bypassed (I'd simply take out the scouts and watch the fleet go kaboom at the other end). And its busy serving as a major trade centre (connecting my trade lanes).
Of your points, I most agree with point 3, as long as they were VERY slow (otherwise you could have Vasari starbase fleets going round smashing you flat)
im talking here against adept human players.
I will never ever fight something that hold no economical walue to enemy if i can avoid it.
You can make this thing useful against AI, yes.
Im talking abaut making it useful against player that know how to ruin your day.
Ever seen 20 carriers run pass your defenses and Bomb rushing your tradeports?
How about a slow fireing ,single torpedo weapon that can disable hyperjump on an enemy ship for a long time with an range that covers a whole asteroid grav-well and deals seroius damage (1000). The first target priority should be caps. That way you could bypass the starbase, but you would lose one cap a least.
I agree with your points exept for the low cost. These are supposed to be huge and very powerful and should be hard to build (both long time and cost wise) They are basically a super-power that nothing in the game can touch single-handedly or even in a small group. So, they should be hard to build and obtain as well.
Just my thoughts.
Im not quit shure what you mean here. Any ability has chanse of being interrupted and recycling time. Ability based fleet interdiction is unreliable way to stop running. And what if you split your fleet in 3?
Starbase need constants that act as deterrant as well.
There is reason people dont use many capital ships. It is hig cost to usefulness ratio.
A static defense, however formitable it is, is static. It wont follow you araund, so any money spent on it is money wasted (save the trade exstension) the moment that area is no longer close to warzone.
Thats why people that do well in SinS rarely build turrets. They might be powerful for the cost, but you cant get them follwo your fleet.
Good point. Empire expansion in this game can be pretty quick sometimes. But I guess it's good to have defenses far back just in case the enemy gets through your front line. Or finds a back door.
This is a good and valid point, but not enough to change my opinion that they are too cheap and easy to build at the present time.
This is also a good point and in most maps there are a lot of back doors.
Majority of people here look at starbase as a tool to play Sim City.
Playing Sim City in MP games will rarely get you a win, without having a good team mate that you can feed at the very least.
I am talking abaut balancing Starbase for Multi Player.
The way starbases are now, means that they are only good for early game rush, When enemy is near and you get some feed to errect a starbase in his territorry.
Mid/late game starbases serve no role.
I've found that starbases (Advent ones at least) are pretty useless as defensive measures in uncolonisable locations.
Their fireing range is so minute (even with both weapons upgrades) that enemies have to be nearly on top of them to be shot at. This might not be a problem at a planet, where you can park it in the middle of your defences right next to the high-value targets, but in empty gravwells enemy fleets only have to arrive slightly off from where you parked the base to zoom through the entire area safely.
I've seen pirate and enemy fleets just zoom past heavily upgraded starbases at less than 1/4 to 1/8 of the gravwell in distance and pass by completely untouched. (except for a few desperate fly-bys by the bomber squadrons) I get the impression they have less range than an unupgraded turret!
The TEC starbase seems pretty similar to the Advent one, in range at least, though I've only played with them as enemies. The only starbase I've seen with some decent range on it is, ironically, the Vasari one (upgraded), which can move to intercept anyway and doesn't need it.
A starbase should be a prime (hard!) target for the enemy, not something you just skip by on your way to bombing an asteroid!
Let me direct everyone to this thread, so that you can see the original plans for what Entrenchment was supposed to be. https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/333260
Let me direct everyone to this thread, so that you can see the original plans for what Entrenchment was supposed to be.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/333260
I just checked using the alt key to bring up the tactical ranges. My fully upgraded TEC starbase has the same range as a gauss turret with the +15% range upgrade.
I think what you guys should do is modify your tactics. A star base can be placed any where in the grav well right? Puth them close to an enemy phase line, and smash them as they come out of phase space with your massive star base's weapons.
And a low cost for a star base? A star base is massive, and just by looking, I'd estimate that it's at least 10 kilometers by 10 kilometers. That hull alone will cost a good part of your credit reserves, and then you have to factor in armor, shields, weapons, life support, power supply, hydroponics, artificial gravity, and all the other things a massive ship like that needs.
@ Cpt Siddy: Star bases would be more important in late game. An upgraded star base, with some turrets and some hanger bays to support it, should be capable of holding off a medium sized attack by itself, and anyone who doesn't also mine the approaches to their worlds, build turrets, and provide at least a few carriers and capital ships for an important system deserves to be hammered. Put a level 10 Mazra with it, and you should be able to hold most systems against anything other then a full assault by his entire fleet, and if you didn't use scouts and early warning systems, then you should start doing that.
Also, why would you make mines disappear if their wasn't a star base in system? Any local system, even with a single fighter bay, should be able to support hundreds of mines. Its not that hard. Really, they could just be said to be small, powerful missiles with a slight movement capability. As such, they are extremely easy to mantain. A limit on mines would be pointless, and if you don't try to find them with scouts, you're a fool.
that would be what i do but there are two problems with that idea first an enemy doesn't come out right on top of the phase lane line usually its to the right OR left and a starbase can't cover both sides. second if there is more than one hostile phase lane then what do you do you can only build one starbase. if your enemy scouts then it will be very easy for him to avoid any starbase in a system
Coming from a singleplayer perspective: I agree with the Cpt_Siddy. I don't think there should be that many drastic changes as he mentions, but they really do feel like glorified turrets. Their role as defense is no where near as Ironclad was advertising, and building one seems inconsequential for either TEC or Advent. There really needs to be some higher range and/or slow movement attached to them because what other users are mentioning here are the exception to the rule (case by case studies), and not as their original purpose was designed for. The only way I've been able to use them effectively is offensively, so that the AI's firepower is drawn towards the starbase rather than my attacking fleet.
Realistically, if I am to "Entrench" myself in a gravity well, these starbases should provide that function.
Actually the starbase can be used to extend your trade range, and can also have a colony on it FROM which you gain a tax income...no economic valkue? I think not.....also try putting a starbase with trade in a friendly trade center instant cash on had...trade ships just roll righ tup to the starbase and roll right back to thier trade platform all game.
ALSO I would like to direct everyone to this thread has a bit more info.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/333254 "> https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/333254
Then you can mod it to increase the range of the star base. Stick an Akkan with level 3 targeting uplinks with it, and thats a 20 percent range increase right there. It should have enough range to kill anything that exits a phase line. Or, you could not build star bases and build as many fighter defense platforms as you can and pump out bombers at the enemy.
If the enemy scouts and sees a star base in the system, then he should know better then to attack that system. They should be deterants for an attack, or numerous enough that he has to attack at one point in your line, and take horrendous losses to break through. If you can inflict severe losses among his capital ships, he won't want to continue to attack. Even if he does and he takes away the system, he just left his own systems undefended unless he had star bases of his own, and your fleet is still intact, ready to do the same to his systems as he was trying to do to yours. A star base would make it hard to take a heavily defended system away from your enemy, unless you are prepared to scrafice heavily from your battle line, and probably your strike craft as well as your bombers attempt to close with the star base.
Starbases shouldn't move except the Vasari one.
Starbases must have abilities that force the enemy to go to them and fight them if they want to phase jump or siege the planet.
the starbases are supposed to be expensive (3x cap ship)
they should be a slow moving but aable to reposition.
they should be able to warp inhibit
they should have a range greater than static defenses. they are a planatary defense so they should be able to hit most of the grave well if not all with at least some type of weapon even if not all of them.
I thought you are just a troll, and was surprised by quality of this post.
+1 Karma for ya.
Ive only played one game thus far and some of the suggestions that everyone is making are obviously valid souch as mayb they should have better a little better range and a phase jump inhibotor ability. Overall though i like the way the game plays right now for the most part. It may be possible to get around a starbase but eventually you eill havr to deal with it no matter. Also alot of people seem to want a starbase to be able to wipe out the enemy for them. I dont really want a game where no i have to attack the star base and risk losing every ship i have in one assault expeically when there can be so many star bases in the galaxy. Of course there are things that need to be fixed and tweaked, but overall i gotta say nicely done
When it comes to cost, I think it should be a expensive to get a fully upgraded starbase. Less so to start building a brand new, much weaker base, though.
Also, I really like what Exterm123 said.
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