Something I was kicking around in my head today. What if there were a new class of ship in the game, one that was a sort of middle ground between cap ships and the heavy cruisers. Basically, battle cruisers. They would be built at cap ship factories, but be about half the size and strength, and they would not use up cap ship points. They would also level up like cap ships. I was also thinking they could be given several upgrade paths to customize their abilities based on what you need (anti-ship, anti-small craft, and support are the 3 I was thinking of).
I thought I would put this out there and see what you guys thought. I think these would be a great middle ground, flex unit for people looking to flesh out their fleets more, but either do not need or do not want more actual cap ships.
Overall idea isn't bad. I don't like the idea of calling them Battlecruisers however, as those were capital ships. I think a better idea might be to make more variety in the Capital ships however, so some might cost most capital ship points than others.
You could have a massive ship that carriers like 12 fighter squadrons and nasty abilities, but cost 5 slots, while a more limited capital ship would cost just one. Compromises would cost inbetween, Having to make each capital ship relatively equivalent limits the variety they could have.
Hmmm... BattleCruisers, i like the idea alot. And i think it is interesting to have them level, but have a variety of uses, as you say, anti-ship, anti-small craft (would this be anti-strikecraft?), and the support. What might be nice, is if we have the same amount of capital abilities, it would spread them out farther, which might be a good thing. It might leave room to give one or two capital slots to more generic abilities, or to concentrate each ship for a specific kind of ability, depending on how the game is played. As a matter of fact, this just made me think it might be very very nice to have abilities that can be assigned to craft, as in before a game, then locked in and played. But next game, you could choose again, try different tactics and strategies? Well, so much for that, i like "your" idea alot. Maybe we could try it in a mod and see how it plays out?
-Teal
Actually, this reflects the idea of modern naval warfare better. Naval warfare is more similar to Sins than air combat, as it is all about ships moving in a confined space without worrying too much about the third dimension.
The navies usually have the following hierarchy:
lesser craft (e.g. scout ships, torpedo boats)
destroyers (the ones who give the battleships in the rear an idea where the enemy might be and to hold ground for a few minutes until reinforcements arrive. They also have decent anti-fighter abilities and a very nasty sonar/radar system).
light cruisers (They focus on engaging the lesser craft and destroyers from a longer range. They put up some cover against strikecraft as well).
battlecruisers (these are not cap ships. Of course they can deal heavy damage to any of the lower vessels, but will definetively lose against the hardier guys. Like the destroyers they have a very strong radar/sonar and can dish out insane amounts of damage against all kinds of submarines)
Heavy cruisers (What is now Kodiak and Enforcer. Massed they are the bane of all capital ships because they exceed their firepower easily when the combat ratio is 1:3 or higher. Of course they are easier to produce than cap ships. But sorry, they cannot defend well against strikecraft and can easily be destroyed with two or three torpedoes as they are rather slow.
Capital ships (aka Hood or Tirpitz or Iowa). These are the backbones of a navy. If everything else falls, they fall quickly as well. But, their long range and massive amount of damage to both air and surface vessels is insane. They also can take a few more torpedoes from a submarine because of their huge armor and good repair teams.
special ships (esp. submarines. well, think of having phantom ships in your fleet. But this should be something for a 4th or 5th expansion. Also: fuel and ammunition transporters or heavy freighters carrying special goods for a consigned mission from the AI *huh*)
So, if you think about a new class of ships for sins, they should be put in the field of battle cruisers and heavy cruisers. Mind you, the Kodiak and similar should be put in the new class as well or it wouldn't make any sense at all. There should, however, be a better light cruiser then.
On the other hand it would be very necessary to increase the AP/HP/SP of the capital ships, including a slight revamp of their abilites, mostly by giving them passive aura bonuses (better than to give them more abilities).
So, now that I have come with a bit of background info. What do you think might be good ships for the new class (ranging from battlecruisers to heavy cruisers)?
this direction sounds interesting, though probably far too game changing to see it in anything else than a full sequel. the stronger ones for example could get available only later into the game. my, one could even design it such that its mostly the ever stronger hulls that are researched and one could research abilities extra. and those abilities might then have a certain power strain each, so that - even with custom picking - one could not build an ability uber ship.
signed.
Players should not be allowed to develop their own ship types. First it's way too complicated for ordinary players. Second, this would be a bit too impressive to auto-develop the blueprints for a 5-point cap ships within in minutes, huh?
how about reducing and increasing costs of capital ships to reflect different usages and abilities , ie: battlecriusers , heavy criusers , battleships , carriers so forth
Eh, personally, I'd rather have a class between Light Frigates and Heavy Cruisers, ie, Destroyers
What would be their purpose? Battlecruisers were designed to kill smaller ships. they had big guns sure, but they traded armour for speed.
Really I don't see the point of having another ship class in the game - there's enough already.
i like more ships!
a mining bardge would be nice
I don't really understand why they would be needed and I'd be concerned that they could mess up the balance in the game. Most frigates and carriers have special anti-matter depleting abilities already. Making these Battle Cruiser like mini-capital ships might make them overpowered, especially if any of them have the more useful capital ship abilities, like Advent mothership shield regeneration, Advent Halcyon weapon cool down, or Vasari mothership nanite attack.
The idea of a cruiser that can become increasingly powerful is intriguing but I wonder what it would do for the game's balance.
personally i think its a good idea and would love to see a bit more variety of ship types in the game
*coughs* We already have battlecruisers. The Akkon and Dunov are the TEC's, for example.
Of course, I, personally, don't really like the way Sins did capital ships, but beggars can't be choosers.
Maxiwell: battlecruisers are also heavier than heavy cruisers. >.>
I was also trying to think up a new class of ship between capital ship and heavy curiser. But I never came up with a name though it would be a lot like the ship you were discribing. One problem would be finding what ships would be effective against them and what ships they are effective against. Sounds to me a lot of work and in the end no one may use them if there is a cheaper option.
I think the idea could work, just make capital ships more powerful, and change the ship type of the capital ships, then slot in the Battlecruisers where the capital ships were. Capital ships are already pretty weak considering that they are capital ships, because they are more like heavily armored support ships capable of fighting off light attacks without escorts. And the number of squadrons is pretty low, considering that a Carrier is about 1000 meters long. It should be able to support dozens of squadrons with that size ship. Even the smaller ships should be able to support at least 5 squadrons of Bombers/Fighters.
And yes, Battlecruisers are larger then Heavy Cruisers.
In a game like Sins, the more ships the better. It does make it hard to balance but with the community we have here, things get balanced fairly quickly. The reason I say more ships is better is because it promotes variety of strategy, more options for counters, and longer lasting game play (due to variety).
Right now frigates and cruisers fit a specialized roll, where battleships are multipurpose. I think it would be great to add in some more multipurpose ships. 3 examples of what would be good to implement.
1 - interdictor. A fast heavily armoured but low DPS BC that slows enemy movement. 2 abilities : 1st) increases jump time by 300% (have a small range compared to say a Jump Inhibitor but area of effect) 2nd) slows movement speed of all ships by 50% (area of effect somewhat smaller than its jump inhibitor ability). This is a good ship to tackle run aways, like those pesky carriers that continue to circle the gravity well while it's bombers pick away at your fleet or the hit and run frigates that constantly jump in and out of your grav well to destroy your trade ports.
2- Warship - loaded with a flak gun and short range blasters. It's good at killing cruisers of all types, but lacks the speed to chase down frigates and the armour to withstand battleships. 2 abilities: 1st) tractor beam, locks down a single cruiser 2nd) computer jam (short range emc burst that jams enemies shooting capabilities for a short time.)
3- Raider - long range weapons designed to take out buildings and ships from afar and can bombard planets. Has high dps, low armour and high speed. This ship is good in fleets or on it's own. In a fleet it would need other ships to keep the distance between it and the enemey, on it's own it can raid planets and buildings and mining facilities. 2 Abilities: 1st) remove mining facility (removes a mining facility from a non-colonizable astroid belt) 2nd) planet bombardment (Similiar to the Marza, slows pop growth and kills population, does some damage to the planet)
These ships are similiar to battleships in that they provide multiple functions, but are different in that they are not fleet support vessels. They are similar to cruisers in that they are easier to field, do not gain levels/experience and only take up fleet cap, they are different in that they fulfill multiple roles and can function without a fleet if necessary.
(FYI in December I'll be starting a mod with ships like this and races that are based on a strategy. (ie. guerilla warfare, imperial domination, spam, balance/adaptable, and strike craft)
The Last Stand mod Episode 1 by ManSh00ter adds minelaying abilities and iterdiction abilities to existing support crusiers, incorporates bailknight's graphics mod AND volumetric explosions (the best thing about the mod), and adds a new race. I'd say this mod does all that and more. Here's the link to the forum
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/331259
I think by mining barge he meant a ship that mines astroids.. but not too sure.
I'll check that mod out, hopefully I can learn some things for my mod.
Thanks!
EDIT*
I clicked the link and I just get routed back to this thread lol.
well, there are refinery ships and extractors work themselves, not sure what a mining barge could do here. personally though, I like that the resource system is fairly automated and does not require that much personal attention on ships or such. though I would like to tweak around with neutral roids a bit, not quite yet sure how though. something with supply lines ...
as to a ship between hc and capships, I'd vote it down. I dunno, I kinda like the way caps stand out as being significantly more powerful and expensive than anything else. bridging that gap would take the feeling away a bit. though as I said, the role distribution among caps could be different in my view, more like a progression in strength.
that said, we will get another cruiser type attack ship in the expansion (at least the tec will) and we have yet to see how much good they are at anything other than busting defenses. so that fills up the cruiser roles too.
Cap ships aren't actually that much more powerful then Heavy Cruisers. Oh, they can take more hits and deal more damage, but they are really enlarged support ships with better firepower and some can carry fighters and bombers into battle. They should be able to keep their abilities, but they should be far more powerful. Oh yea, some people will complain because their fleet of LRFs gets ass-raped by a Dreadnought, but LRFs aren't supposed to be able to stand up to a capital ship anyway. The Battlecruiser idea would be extremely useful, because they could still be killed without other Battlecruisers of Capital ships, but they could provide more tactical flexability, and provide a light covering ship for planets not worthy of the massive starbases or mine fields of highly exposed systems.
And the TEC torpedo boat will probably still be able to take out moving targets, just not stand up to them in a fight, because of their nukes.
I like the game the way it is now. It has good balance and chemistry as it stands now. Would you really want to mess with that? If you're getting bored playing single player I suggest you come play online multiplayer.
I like this idea of battlecruisers class idea. If they level up and have abilites I think it should be more limited like 2. Say each ship has 4 different ones but can only use two. IE you have to choose how you want it to fight.
What would make this work is cost. Caps just cost to much to want to build more. These guys should be more then a cruiser but not to much more. Umm fleet points should also be close to cruiers. Make it worth bringing these guys out.
I would like beefier Heavy Cruisers with multiple guns with different arcs. Heavy Cruisers should be smaller versions of capital ships - big ships with multiple guns. After giving Destras, Kodiaks and Enforcers a little more weaponry and possibly hull, we could have new Destroyer class ships between Frigates and Cruisers.
Heavy Cruisers being built in the Capital Ship Factory is a great idea. Cap ship factories should be useful for building smaller craft as well.
great idea but i doubt if they will put in the game any time soon
actually, now that I think of it, there is something I do want.
I'd like a straight combat ship in the capital ship class. not something like a kol which does to a good deal depend on its abilities, but a real, no-thrills fighting machine, like a kodiak on the next level. without any abilities to speak of, it obviously has to be a good deal tougher, both on the offensive side and the defensive side, but I always felt the capships here were too much about abilities and such which often reduced them to a supporting role.
I'm not really talking about titan class ships though, mind you. just something in the same price range to can do serious pain without abilities. and surely, for focus fire, a solution can be found too.
in other words, a Grand Cruiser. (from BFG)
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