Topic. When you have extra logistics slots on planets, particularly desert planets, is it better to fill them up with trade ports or culture structures (assuming the planet is reasonably close to the enemy, so that culture from it will actually reach their planets)? Trade ports increase your own income, but culture decreases the enemy's, and also provides combat benefits. This is affected to some extent by race; TEC trade ports are tier 2 and culture is tier 3, encouraging trade, while Advent are the reverse. Which brings me to another question, exactly what are the combat benefits each race receives when fighting in a gravity well under their culture's influence?
Plus, Refineries or Trade Ports? For TEC atleast, I'd imagine Trade, if only because it's tier 2 instead of tier 4 and the structures themselves are considerably cheaper. Haven't really tried Advent's Resource Focus yet, and I still haven't even played as Vasari at all.
1.Under Culture Influence, TEC has increased antimatter regeneration rate. Advent has higher shield mitigation. Vasari has higher damage output.
2. Refineries or Trade Ports ? Both of them
If your culture is spreading enough, trade ports. If you have enough income, then more culture...
And don't forget that if you colonise a new planet you can either lengthen the longest trade route for a bonus to income or you can add another culture structure to spread culture more. If you have the slots you can do both. So then you could remove the culture from one of your "safe" planets to buid more trade...
The thing is - there is no 100% right answer - it depends on your strategy and how the game is developing. That's what makes Sins grat.
Ah, never culture then
From what I can tell the trade income is subject to your allegiance % just like tax and asteroid income. This means that the further away from your home planet you are the less trade ports will do for you. I normally move as much of my factories/labs and culture stuff as far forward as I can and stuff my other planets with trade ports and refineries.
hmm this ones easy... i tried and tried until i found my perfect combination
try to get atleast 1 trade port per planet (not massing them on 1)
so every roid should have atleast 1 trade port too!!!!
every 3 or 4 planets.. u give a culture structure.. this supplies a steady and fast culture to your inner empire
add cultureal buildings at or close to the border that is under cultural attack, also try to station capital ships there (vasari get a bonus here) (for those of you who dont know, capital ships have influence and lower enemy culture)
all large planets (deserts , terrans) should be given atleast 1 culture center, 1 trade port, if its a major hub, adding a dock wouldnt hurt either (should only be done if you think it'll be used or if its on / near a border)
adding a 2e trade port to deserts is a good econimical choice, but will hurt your research center capacity.... choose carefully... (big maps are not a problem)
in case you play as vasari or TEC you have Refinery's, this parts a lil more advanced tough... and needs a good overvieuw of your empire, bordering planets and a good sense of wether it'll help or actually hurt progress
search planets wich have alot of bordering colonized worlds (or neutral extractors) place a refinery at that world, refinery ships wil harvest extractors up to 1 phase jump away, every PLANETBASED extractor has capacity for 3 bordering refineries (neutral extractors have 4) check and calculate closely wich planets will have the refinery bonus, if you do it right you can have 80% of your empire's extractors coverd with atleast 2 refinery filled slots
total recource income should get around a 50% bonus (this is a guess, i never actually took the time to calculate this.. any reply on the % is welcome
remeber that refinerys need carefull planning, it's highly possible that you'll have 1 refinery per planet, but in some planet "webs" you'll be able to get a small number of refinerys that still cover 80%... planning and learning is key
all remaining planet slots should be filled with research center .. example: you still need 2 economic centers and 4 combat centers, place them preferably somewhere behind or deep inside your empire,
if you've got the maximum centers you can start placing more refineries (trying to get quotes of 3 or 4 (having a planet with 4 quotes aint a problem if you'll fill another up to 3
after you feel like the refineries r about right, start placing culture centers, trade ports and on the borders, docks
thats about it
remeber that everything stated here is for long games.. if u prefer to rush dont bother sticking so much time in economy this is however my playstyle on large maps... since rushing there cant really be called a rush
True - but the main factor with trade is you get X per trade port (unless there are any buffs or nerfs against a planet). X is calculated on the length of the longest trade chain. So your trade income won't change with allegiance - but your tax and resource rates do. So you have to work out what gets you more - more trade and less tax/resouces or vice versa
In the early game, Trade Ports, without question. On a large map, however, there comes a point at which you're making almost literally more money then you could possibly spend, but you're loosing a lot fo resource production, because your empire has spready out and so the loyalty on your outlying planets is quite low. When that point comes, start building at least one culture generator at each fo your more far-away worlds to both increase your resource income and also grant you the race-appropriate combat benifits.
As for Trade Ports Vs. Refomeroes. O wpi;d agree: have at least one of each on the average planet. Trade Ports first, though.
Oh, and speaking from expeience, I love the versatility of resuorce focus.
I think everyone answered ok. My only sticking point is that to me, refineries are worthless. Just put trade centers up and if you need resources, buy them. Trade stacks so much better than refineries and the cost to research and build refineries just doesn't outweigh the benefits. Besides, if you play Vasari, you will be in no short supply of resources anyway - yeah planet suction!
hm trade ports own at the start and are usefull late game when u needs loads of cash
however even if u spend everything on trade ports, its going to be way to expensive purchasing al the recources u need with the cash
in the end refineries will be worthmore then u couldve bought with cash only.... especialy since the refinery gives this bonus to all nearby planets, not just hte planet its currently on...
ofcourse , refinerys should be build late game, just as yet another income improvement, you shouldnt rush for it.. like you do with trade ports... vasari may have extra recource income... but if you watch closer, theyre actualy having a disadvantage on economy.....
#1 ships cost alot more...... more then the recource bonus makes up for actually...., an example = ,, ever saw a vasari with more ships then TEC, advent?? (without Returning armada)?
#2 no change in credit rate.... even less oportunity to buy the recources they miss
#3 tier 4 trade port.... vasari has a hard time getting a high economy fast , mainly becuase they lack credits and have trade ports late, and refineries early....
refineries is a personal choice, either u have a good building method for them, or u dont build em at all... if u skip refinerys.. u'll have a bigger fleet... if u do build em... you'll have a pretty large economic advantage late game and eventually.. a bigger fleet/rebuilding power, research and ofcourse... being able to mass kostura cannons (should the game last REALLY long...
Hey Subjagator, Hack78 is correct. Trade ports aren't affected by allegiance. In fact, generally they work better farther out because it gives a greater chance for a long, high value chain.
But, nobody has mentioned, that maximum culture increases your allegiance by 10%, therefore increasing your tax and resource income by 10% also!
So, culture centers spreadout in strategic points like Shadow describes ("add cultural buildings at or close to the border that is under cultural attack"), and spreading from your central, high income capital, can eventually pay for themselves.
Finally, understand that sometimes, not building a tradeport, results in a longer chain, with higher bonuses, because it forces the chain to take the "long way around". Experiment with it (by scuttling tradeports, and hovering over your income to see resultant white trade chain income), until you understand the mechanics.
(PS, like Howdidudothat, I concluded that refineries are just about worthless, but I admit, I haven't experimented with them enuf.)
*accidental double post*
From my experience, the Cred-to-Metal-or-Crystal rate on the black market tends to stay between 400 and 500, while the materials-to-creds rate hovers between 200 and 300, so I'll say 100 materials is roughly equal to 350 creds. With this in mind, and playing as TEC, researching Orbital Commerce and then building one Trade Port costs approximately 2662 credits (1350 creds and 375 materials). One Trade Port brings in 1.3 creds per second (or it did in my game); at that rate, it will take the Trade Port about 2050 seconds (34 minutes) to pay for itself.
Building a second creates a chain; assuming the chain has a length of 1 phase lane, that's +0.1 to the income rate of each Trade Port. Now the cost of building the Ports is increased to ~4200 creds, while the two Ports bring in 2.8 creds per second. The income rate more than doubled, but the cost only increased by about 57%. Now the Ports will take 1500 seconds (25 minutes) to pay for themselves. A third Port, increasing the chain to two phase lanes in length and thus a +0.2 cred per second bonus, increases the cost to ~5740 and the income rate to 4.5. They’ll pay for themselves after ~1275 seconds (21 minutes). 4 Ports cost ~7280, pay for themselves after ~1140 seconds (19 minutes). 5 Ports, ~8820 cost, pay for themselves after ~1040 seconds (17 minutes). 6 Ports, ~10360 cost, pay for themselves after ~960 seconds (16 minutes).
To give an idea of what you could be doing instead with that cash, for about the same cost as researching Orbital Commerce and building 5 Trade Ports, you can research Javelis Prototype and build 14 LRMs. It will take the Ports 34 minutes to catch up pay for themselves and bring in enough additional income to do the same thing (research LRMs and then build 14 of ‘em). After that point the Trade Ports become purely advantageous, but considering how long it takes to even get 5 Ports up, the game may be close to over by that point, depending on the size of the map. Also, this is with TEC, who get Trade Ports at Tier 2, as opposed to Advent at Tier 3 and Vasari at Tier 4.
The point of all this? The first few Trade Ports make a bigger impact than subsequent Ports; if you want a happy medium between no Ports and econ booming, then build 3 Ports and stop there until you have enough extra money to build more without impeding ship production and research. Also, the smaller the map, the less desirable Trade Ports are; a trade network will pay far larger dividends over the course of a 14-star-system-10-hour-long game than over the course of a 7-planet-45-minutes-long game.
The worth of Culture Centers is more difficult to measure; I’m not sure of the formula used to determine tax income from planets; the fact that allegiance changes take place over a period of time makes their effects difficult to measure in general; there are more variable factors to consider with Culture (How are your planets positioned, i.e. how many planets can you reach with one culture center? Does the enemy have their own culture centers counteracting your own?); etc.
WJC, I like your style of thinking - solid quantitative analysis. Let me present your analysis in a table, with some additional observations:
# of Ports: 1 2 3 4 5 6Totl Cost: 2662 4200 5740 7280 8820 10360Income /: 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8Totl Income: 1.3 2.8 4.5 6.4 8.6 10.9Minutes: 34 25 21 19 17 16 (till payback)Add'l Cost: 1540 1540 1540 1540....IncomeIncrease: 1.3 1.5 1.7 1.9 2.1 2.3Minutes: 17 15 13.5 12 11(till payback)
As you can see above, the incremental cost of each additional trade port remains the same (ignor 'sunk' research costs), but the incremental income grows exponentially, so the payback time declines substanitally. Meaning that tradeports are a much better bargain - the more you build. Each tradeport that lengthens the chain, earns .1 more income, and adds .1 to each of the ports proir to it on the chain. So, don't even start building them, until you can build several at once (in a chain), and then, try building them so that they skip over UCGW's (UnColonizeable Gravity Wells), to earn even longer chain bonuses. So, I'd have to disagree with the following statement:
A <15 minute payoff is a good return, compared to most income opportunities in the game. For example, the infrastructure upgrade on your homeworld (to level 4 for Terran), that most people make at the very start of the game, would take about 15 minutes to pay for itself. Colonizing an adjoining asteroid with 3 extractors (90% allegiance), takes 19 minutes for the taxes to pay for itself, and about 25 to build out. And dont forget, allegiance, and thus income, only declines accordingly as you move farther away: 100%, 90%, 80%, 70%, 55%, 40%, 25%, and 25% for all colonies more than 6 gravity wells away from your Home (Capital). On top of this, some asteroids have less than 3 extractor's, which also raises the payback time!
A single culture center on your homeworld has the potential to eventually raise all of your tax, metal, & crystal income by 10%. For your homeworld alone, that is usually about 1.3 more tax income, and about .15 more resource income. For TEC, w/ tier 3 research, a culture center costs about 3638. Giving a payoff time of about 33 minutes. But initially, it takes about an additional 10 minutes just to raise the homeworld allegiance by 10%.
I just learned that a new colony accessible only by a wormhole always has an allegiance of 25%, no matter how close it is to the homeworld. Whereas, allegiance through stars follows according to the standard regression. So, while will we receive a .3+ bonus for a longer tradeport chain thru 2 UCGWs in both cases, the tax & resource income potential on the other side of a 'stranded' wormhole is very low. (Even after a 10% culture boost to 35% allegiance, the payback is probably hours!)
Here's a link to a website with a good explanation of trade income:
http://www.soasewiki.com/index.php/Trade_Port
In particular, see the examples, especially the "extreme example", with 34 jumps.
Here's a link to an old discussion where Retroboy analyzes culture income:
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/313848
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