Having an option to spy on other races without sabotage and without risk of being nullified is exactly what most people who didn't like the DA system wanted.
It's an improvement - though not an utterly radical one like I wanted and I think that's Serp's point.
It's superior to the one before it but I think there are a lot of us who wanted spying to be as much a part of the game as say, spaceship fights. We were promised a radical change, and some people don't feel "bringing back the old" is as radical as it was hyped up to be.
Me, I appreciate SD's efforts to make us happy. You can always do more, but as you said, they have been pretty busy.
One thing I will say - not sure what switch was flipped but overall many of the AIs are much more competitve, and I do appreciate the heck out of that!
Not only that Iceciro, but I have yet to see a major strategy change offered by players with this improvement and I will also play test it when it comes out. But bringing back the old system and combining it with the new dosn't offer a major strategy change besides maybe cost and bonuses. I think creatively, people would of been much happier if they added features like inciting riots and exposing government failures and actually sabotaging either economy/diplomacy for a short period of time rather than placing spies and shutting buildings down which dosn't really hit hard in my opinion in terms of making the race suffer as I like it to be. Obviously, I am not proposing to have a victory condition only with espionage, but currently its just not strong enough either in my opinion.
I'm a fan of boundless expecations and reasonable demands. I've griped and cajoled about all manner of changes I'd like to see to the espionage system and other parts of the game as well. But I don't recall a "promise" this aggressive from the devs.
Can you give a reference link? I'd scoff the adjective "radical" if that was really part of the 2.0 espionage buzz, even though I'm really glad to see that basic intel vs. sabotage functionality. I didn't expect anything "radical" in a free update, and I'm way tired of how our over-marketed culture has left so many of us expecting anything "new" to also be mind-blowingly exciting. Sometimes new is just a nice thing, not a cause for dancing in the streets.
IMO, the espionage system is pretty close to where it needs to be in its 2.0 incarnation. Once the bugs are ironed out and the costs are balanced a little more, I'll be perfectly content with it. It's nice to have as a feature, and while I agree the new system is not a drastic departure from the old one, it isn't a major facet of the game and I don't feel it has to be. Maybe GalCivIII can benefit from a new, expanded system with more options, but as far as TA goes I think it's fine.
I hate to play with words either but really, in my opinion the word revamped vs radical for marketing purposes is not really a major difference.
But if they wanted an honest marketing, I would of used the word improvement for which people wouldn't of mistaken for revamped or radical.
Promised was perhaps the incorrect word, but a revamp to me is a major reworking, not a small addition (which would have flown better with the playerbase in the end, as far as what we got.)
My point is not to say "we didn't get what the devs promised and they're evil bastages", just to point out that my point and serp's point is that we expected more, for whatever reason (tonage of dev notices, hearing what we wanted to hear, whatever.)
I'm not in any way upset or angry, I was just expecting slightly more than "here, have back passive spying.". Kinda like when I heard added diplomacy, "selling fleeted ships as a fleet" was not the want that came to my mind at all. It's more a question of hope/perception than a promise made and/or not made.
The problem with having to introduce much more drastic changes to the Espionage system (qualified as anyone would want it!) is that the gameplay 'balance' (AI algorithms included) would take a huge hit.
I too, could have played up to Sabotage/Infiltration/Subdue/Information/Etc tactics & i'd have been happier for anything new & above the conventional principles already there.
But, as they say - we hope, we wish, we think... and so are (and will) the great (or even too busy with the upcoming fantasy title!) coders of SD.
Although eventually, we will get GC3 -- before long.
When the GalCiv III area gets up, we're going to have a laundry list of insane suggestions for the SD team to pick through
Unfortunetly, I doubt any of our espionage ideas that I posted even months ago would ever make it to GalcivIII if there ever is one. I worked long and hard for it to come up with those ideas and they even told us to come up with ideas for espionage in 2.0 and ended up with this so called revamped system?
Well, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but none of us are entitled to being right--that call comes from hard data and/or clear consensus. IMO, "revamped" vs. "radical change" is a major distinction.
2.0 is a free update to mark the close of active development of GCII. I never got the impression that we should be expecting a whole new game, or even a major share of what might come in a fee-funded expansion. I'm sorry that you got your hopes up so high, but I don't see what you expect to gain by extensive, repetitive expressions of anger. If you seriously hope to "sell" your ideas to the devs, railing against them hardly seems a sensible strategy. Flies-honey-vinegar and whatnot, eh?
Your a post too late, I also never said we need a brand new game and all I'm doing is being realistic. What I'm saying is that the impression they let us to believe is after asking us to post revamped ideas about espionage and this, ... way before 2.0 was coming out, and I worked hard to come up with it ... all we got is a so called improvement if I can even call it that. So now, since we ain't getting a revamped and a stronger espionage system, at least I hope if there ever is a GalcivIII they make the espionage system much stronger by implimenting some of our more creative ideas ....? No one is angry, I am a little sad and it's a very fair assessment.
The new espionage options sound great – I’m new to GalCiv2 (purchased it early last week but didn’t get a chance to play it until the weekend), and currently I place my spies primarily to gather information (disabling buildings is just a bonus), this empire wide approach should save a lot of effort and micromanagement. I trust that it’s all been thought out and balanced, but I have to question removing the ability for these agents to be compromised – currently there is a risk/reward thing going on where gaining a stronger knowledge isn’t a given and the other empires have a chance at stopping you from gaining that information. Either way, thanks for a great game
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Interesting, isn't it?
Over the week_end, in one of the many beta-run test games i undertook i was VERY pleased by such a simple thing as being hit by only ONE spy from an opponent in the entire game -- on, hold it -- *the* manufacturing capital! This had never happened before.
Nothing stopped them from gathering similar info about me with their own passive spies also, though!
I am absolutely sure most AI algorithms were revamped (sic!) or even, were radically changed (re-sic!) in this update. It shows.
Sooo, serptico... please, give it some time as i'm convinced the many smart frogs are watching ALL of this 'discussion' with attention.
Hmmmm.
Asinine, or childish . . I'm just not sure . . .
Jonnan
do me a favor, stay unsure ...
You want favors, don't put people in the position of figuring out if you're being asinine or childish - {G}.
Your the only one with the wild imagination. It must be lonly in your world jonnan.
All things about espionage aside -
I have to say, yeah.
The AIs are insanely smart suddenly, and I am LOVING it. I can get a good game with massive AI empires on Tough - something previously unheard of for me.... Someone went in and did some serious codework, it looks like. I made the mistake of buffing the Krynn abilities due to Espionage being kinda worthelss... and they ate me alive in Influence next game. It was AWESOME.
"Wild Imagination" - That someone can't see your arguing over the question of revamped, radical, or improved as being assinine and childish without somehow being evidence of some wild imagination - what a self-important conceit.
Serptico - get over yourself already.
Take it to PMs guys or just drop it.
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