Ive been an avid DotA player for a few years now and have of late become tired of the quitters, whiners, and noobs in DotA. So, when I heard that Demigod was inspired by DotA, my first thought was 'About time!' and I quickly preordered the game. Now that Ive finished a few rounds of the first beta of Demigod, I wanted to share my thoughts on Demigod for fellow betatester and non-betatesters.
There are cliff notes at the bottom for the lazy.
Gameplay:At its heart Demigod keeps true to the basic of DotA gameplay; You control a single hero and have to smash your way past the enemy mobs and heroes, destroy their towers, and ultimately destroy their base. For the moment though, thats about where the similarities end. Demigod Beta 1 suffers from two crucial flaws: tiny map size and owerpowered heroes.
Map Size:The game map is obscenely small and can be travelled across in less than it takes to get to your outer ring of towers in DotA. The tiny map size severly limits the gameplay possibilities. In DotA, you could talk with your teammates and organize ganks on one of the lanes then push down a tower and gain a tactical advantage. The small map size makes ganking nearly impossible and unrewarding and also completely destroys the ability to jungle. The tiny, unimaginative map size is one of the most dissapointing aspects of the game for me.
Heroes:The heroes in Demigod start out strong, and just proceed to get rediculously stronger as time goes on. Mobs are never challenging to fight, even at the beginning and theres no need to worry about any caution when fighting them since they just easily get destroyed. Compare this to Dota where unwary players could somewhat easily get killed by mobs if they agrroed too many. Sure, in the end playing DotA, you could easily destroy waves of creeps and not take a scratch but that was only after slowly levelling up and gaining more powerful items. The rediculously overpowered hero abilities and heroes are the second most dissapointing aspect of Demigod. Overpowered heroes change the gameplay from a strategic smash-em-up into just a twitch fest to see who can drop the ability that will farm the mobs the fastest so that you can buy better items and kill more mobs more quickly ultimately culminating in a rush to the base where winner takes all. Initial starting hero strength in Demigod is roughly eqivalent to the average level 15 hero in Dota. Theres no challenge against mobs, and there never is. Huge HUGE flaw.
Items:I havent fully explored all the different items since Ive only played three games so far, but from what Ive seen, the item selection is pretty decent. Its one of the areas that I only have a couple relatively small issues with. The first is the complete lack of item recipes which will probably show up in a later beta and the second is the channeling time on drinking potions. Drinking a potion should be instant or nearly so that it should be thought to be instant. There shouldnt be a 4 second loading bar in order to drink a potion.
Gold:Gold is plentiful. You get gold passively from your mines and from killing mobs. The passive gold is fine and killing mobs for gold is fine, but when you can easily destroy a wave of creeps with a single ability pretty much right from the start, it gets a bit lame. In DotA, you had to carefully control your character and last-hit creeps in order to get any sort of real income. Also, you could bite into the enemy gold flow by denying your own creeps. Not so in Demigod, if you start to attack it, you will kill it, and get the gold. Too easy and too boring.Levelling:Levelling is way too quick. Perhaps Im wierd, but the best DotA games to me are the 45-90 minute games where I slowly level up, become more powereful, work my way across the map ganking if theres a nice target, organize a couple rushes into their base, destroy the enemy barracks, and fight my way inside and then claim victory by destroying the enemy Throne(I dont play Scourge). In Demigod, all thats needed to win is to stay out, not die, kill the mob waves that come your way, grab a few nice items, farm some more, wait till level 15 or so, then own some towers, walk in, and win. B-o-r-i-n-g. Give me a challenge and a longer, harder game.
Performance:I have an Opteron 165 @ 2.4Ghz with 2GB of RAM and a 4870 at stock speeds with Catalyst 8.8 drivers running Windows XP Pro. Demigod is set to all high settings with 4x AA and vsync is off. Throughout the three rounds Ive played so far my average FPS has ranged between 30-60 average FPS, with drops down to 15 FPS or so when shopping. Im not complaining, Im not praising, Im just reporting. Its a beta, and poor performance is too be expected while the bugs are debugged and the game is optimized. Ive yet to get any crashes.
Final Notes:I know that some of you are thinking, BUT DEMIGOD ISNT DOTA LOL. Thats fine and all, but from what Ive seen of the forums, the majority of folks that are interested in Demigod chose to preorder Demigod because of DotA. You cant argue with DotA's success. Why try to redesign a game and improve on it when theres already a wildly successful model that works beautifully and draws massive amounts of players...all in a 3MB custom map file for a game that came out in 2001. Change the game however you want, do whatever you want, but in the end the DotA model works. Use it. Abuse it. Give us DotA with a working ban system, better graphics, and more maps and youll please many people.
Cliff notes for the lazy:-map is way too small, cannot gank or strategize attacks-heroes are way too strong, mobs are never a challenge-lack of recipes...nuff said-drinking potions is a channeling action-uber powerful heroes make gold too easy to get-no need to last hit since heroes overpowered-no way to deny since heroes overpowered-levelling is too fast and easy
I completely see your points. A couple of small maps may be nice, but larger ones may need to be a neccessity. The few games I played ended up starting with two small constant battles between 1-2 heroes and the creeps. The only strategy also is to make sure one person is able to keep an eye on the flag in the center, while the other two push for the portal. If the maps were bigger, and the demigods were weaker, it would start of slower with defence against the creeps and then pushing for an attack which I think may turn out better for strategy.
I have also played dota for years and I agree with several of your points. However, I'm sure that I do not want demigod to be a dota clone. I'd like to see it be different and better. The General heroes I believe will really make a difference and I am eagerly waiting to play them.
I think your point about the map being too small is not really important in the scheme of things. If there at least a few good large maps then it will mostly come down to a matter of taste.
I completely agree about the lack of challenging creeps. It really takes a lot of the thrill out of the early game. The heroes are indeed a little too powerful.
One thing to consider is that GPG has said that they want Demigod to appeal to a large audience and that they intentionally removed some of the more "hardcore" mechanics present in Dota. I'm pretty split on the idea of including the concept of last hitting and denying into demigod. Likewise recipes are one of the biggest obstacles for players getting into Dota. Recipes are not intuitive at all for a new player. I think simply purchasing items is a bit simple and that there should be another more interesting mechanic for acquiring items but I don't think recipes are the way to go for a game striving for a low learning curve.
I can understand the developers wanting to make a game with a larger appeal, but if you take out the "hardcore" aspects which arent hardcore, then you remove what little skill is involved in playing the game. You turn a possible strategic game into yet another online mash-em-up which is neat for a few days, a few weeks, maybe even a few months, but which is eventually dropped on the side in favor of another game because the game mechanics are too simple to master.
The nice thing about DotA is that although Ive played it for years, I *know* there are some hero combinations and item combos that Ive never used and never will use and because of the rediculous amount of heroes to choose from, the possible combinations are effectively limitless.
So sure, take out last hitting, take out denying, take out recipies, take out any real complexity, and just turn this game into yet another average online game that will get its few months in the spotlight for a neat new idea before fading into obscurity.
I think that overall the game is just way too simple, i mean its a great concept and I know its still in the first beta phrase but ya know..they need to find out early.
I just wanted to agree with pretty much every point the original poster made, emphasis on map "tactical opportunities" for ganks/etc. I can't imagine how crowded a 1-lane push would be in a 5v5. Microing is pretty much useless at the moment as well, skill doesn't seem to impact gold gathering very much, etc... I dislike the "flat" map, even WC3 had two "planes" with fog-of-war happening when ya climb a ramp, etc...
On the other hand, beta1 is an ENGINE test ...So while it is a good thing to point out the direction we believe they should go, we have to keep that in mind.
First and foremost, Lets recognize that this is the 1st beta. Alot of features, demi's, maps, etc were taken out. The point of the beta is to find critical bugs and problems installing and running the game.
That being said, I agree with the OP in many respects. Alot of balance is left to be done. Watching a 3,000 hp lvl 15 rook take damage for a few minutes, only to have him pop a healing potion and wala, back to form is a bit annoying.
I agree that the speed should be increased, faster movement, faster attacks, faster creeps, etc. It feels like we are playing on normal speed on DOTA, when FASTEST is the standard.
I agree on the points of map size and Demigod strength. I'm fairly confident that when we get to see more maps, there will be some variety in both size and layout, so that's something I not terribly worried about just yet. The Demigod power thing, too, is likely to get tweaked more in beta 2, but it's still worth bringing up.
I disagree pretty strongly on some of your other points though. I think the bulk of the strategy and skill should be in how you use your skills and how you work with your team. Last hitting and denying are unecessary and unintuitive mechanics, especially for beginners. Item combination recipes are even less necessary, since it's just like buying an item except that you have to memorize some potentially obscure combination if you want to do so. I do think that Demigods shouldn't get experience (or shoulld ger seriously diminished experience for) kill by towers.
This is exactly what I was getting at. I think everyone will a agree that a good game will be easy to pick up but difficult to master. I want demigod to be deep too but I'm not sure that they are the best mechanics to do so. Last hitting and denying lose importance once you've left the early game anyway. Once the General heroes are added in denying would be the exact opposite of their strat which would be to keep their units alive through micro.
I have to agree with syxxbynyne , while you have some good points , I dislike last hit/denying and recipes ... maybe you like it because you're used to it .
I've played quite a lot of dota as well, recipes are not fun but where a necessity because of the too few items slots you had and last hit can be very frustrating when you start.
Demigod will (and should) be a different game .
Otherwise , good report
The devs need a wide variety of reports and opinions to help improve the game .
I agree with some points, but for me i think early creeps are quite weak,and late game creeps we cannot solo them anymore. And faster EXP is better imo, it make people can get better overview of the game. Maybe it can be adjustable later i think.
Guyz while you might have some good points here and there I think you're missing the whole ideea of this Beta 1 thingie...
As they've already stated, balancing will be done in a later stage. Thus complaining about about how powerful heroes are vs creeps and how fast you can level is, to me, like saying you're dissapointed that it doesn't have a SP campaign yet
I didn't preorder because I DotA.
I don't really like DotA, and I don't think most are DotA players. I don't think even one QUARTER are.
Most DotA players dont' know about Demigod.
I could NOT disagree with you more. Each piece of each recipe in dota gives you early game advantages, which is EXACTLY what makes Dota recipes so genious.
So for example an early game item that gives you health and mana can be turned into a much more power item in the late game that, for example, resets all your spells instantly.
Yes, you have to 'memorise' the recipe pieces, but when each piece actually benefits you, it opens up so many doors for strategical item development.
Recipes are awesome and should definately be included in this game.
I don't really agree with you on that point ,having to learn (and remember) a wide variety of recipes is quite hard .
Most of the time players only learn a few combo of items for a small set of heroes or type of heroes , eg. : Spellcaster -> go mana + mana regen set, agi hero -> go attack speed and evade set , strength hero -> go hp/armor + damage set ( I'm over-simplifying it for the example , but I hope you'll get the point) .
So "item strategies" during a Dota game rarely evolve "on the fly".
Imo, a customisation system maybe a better way to go , for example , go buy your average breastplate then go to the smith shop to upgrade it with a component,rune,orb ..etc .. (call it whatever you like) giving + xx armor/hp/energy and another one giving a special ability (thorns, aura of fire ...etc..) or more points . It could even balanced with your hero level (for example , at level X you unlock another set of upgrades with another set of armor pieces ..)
Hope my post is clear
Edit -> This damned button appeared too late ><
Oups , the edit button is on holiday ..
In order to complete my post and the idea of customisation , an interesting way of getting upgrade components could be by "salvaging" dead demigods .
The same way they drop potions or scroll , we could get a piece of their souls with a special effect , example (again^^) : bring a piece of TorchBearer's soul to add energy or energy regen to your armor piece while a piece of Rook's soul could add armor or hp and a piece Regulus' one could add attack speed depending on their level and the piece where you add the compenent .
I can already imagine players in need of an armor bonus , rushing an enemy Rook to get his soul
Truth. DotA is inaccessible and plays slowly. I don't want a 45-90 minute game.
The complaints about map size=lack of strategy and demigod 'overpoweredness' neatly cancel out, I think--if you draw the enemy demigods to one side of the map, you can certainly do a lot of damage where they vacated before they can make it back.
You forget the teleport consume item... So its very easy to get anywhere ya need to defend. Also, if you don't want a 45min game, what do you want? 10minutes? heh... I'm sure they will make a 1v1 10-20min map, so let me have my 5v5 45-70min map .
i say nay to the working ban system
To play it like DotA I think you would need to be an assasin against a general.
Abix, I gave you some karma! Great post and thanks much, the replies were awesome as well. I think the "Demi vs DotA" argument has a long ways to run before we hear the end of it.
I agree on quite a few of the OP's points(if not all), and I am really hoping that the game is still at a point where they can make major adjustments, to make it more strategic. I like DotA, I play it quite often, but theres only so much a custom map on another game can do. I am hoping for a DotA with a "twist" if you will.
I'm not!
I'm hoping for a game that has some similarities, but is unique enough to escape the inevitable "well, why'd I pay $50 for what's effectively a WC3 custom map?"
Okay I have played dota for god knows how long. But you cannot judge this gameplay quite yet. Your saying heroes are overpowered yet we all know this is the first version available to test. Balance will change but I do not believe we are at the balance stage of testing. It sounds like your trying to rate this game like it was released already. And you ARE comparing this game to dota specifically if you are mentioning last hitting and denying. This game is a seperate game if it was like dota then people would just play dota. Last hitting and Denying may not be even in this game. You indeed are implying that you want this game to be DotA with better graphics by your posts. This game is not DotA, is not in the balancing stages, and is not ready to be rated.
After thinking about recipes and the like, I posted an idea for a possible simplification of the recipe mechanic that will make it more accessible but still interesting.
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/323225
I think the Demigod vs. Dota crap is going to be just like Supcom vs. TA.
But DotA is no TA..
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