With palms together,
Good Afternoon All,
What is our relationship to the Infinite? Can we have such a relationship? And if so, on what basis does it exist?
In Zen we talk of Big Mind. By this we mean the Infinite, the Absolute. Some may understand this Big Mind as God.
Others need a much more anthropomorphic understanding and so deny that the Absolute or the Infinite is God. They want a God that suits them and their sensibilities, a God they can wrap their arms around.
In Zen, its all about our practice. True, but our practice has an aim. That aim is awakening or "enlightenment." So, while we practice to practice and actually understand true practice as realization itself, we might not see a personal, relational "God" or "Big Mind" in this aim.
No worries. The Universal is big enough to handle a multiplicity of levels and understandings.
Just today I read an article about two people who might shed some light here. These two thinkers, theologians or philosophers in their own right, were both products of the 20th century. Both lived through the theological upheaval of the holocaust.
Martin Buber was a Hasidic Master (in my opinion) who taught us about the nature of relationships. He suggested there were two essential types, the "I-It" and the "I-Thou". The I-It relationship is a relative, small mind, relationship. It is founded in object relations and suggests a duality between subject and object. In this sense, we enter into I-it relationships for essentially utilitarian reasons.
An I-Thou relationship is a relationship in Big Mind. It is essentially non-dualistic where there is only the word pair as a single word or entity. Our relationship with the Infinite is just that. As the Buddha pointed out about the morning star, there is no difference between you and me. We are one. The universe and me are one; God and me are one. and as the Torah alludes, everything, the I Am, is One.
Our approach to Big Mind is the same approach as Martin Buber's to his relationship with God. It is an immanent and intensely personal one. As we begin to relate to the universe as ourselves with no real or symbolic separation, we are one with the Infinite.
Abraham Heschel, on the other hand had a different idea. He taught that person and God were essentially separate, but that we could come together. From his point of view God revealed the way to Him at Sinai, He taught us how through the Torah. He argued that we join God through the commandments. Keeping the commandments as God outlined them was a righteous activity. So, essentially Heschel begins with Small Mind. He is precept driven. Through the practice of the precepts we come to God.
The Buddha was precept driven as well. The Buddha recognized that we all need to live together in a community, a "sangha" if you will. In this living together our Buddha Nature had an opportunity to emerge, like fire from flint-stone. The precepts, like the commandments, are the Universe's reality. Just as Dharma is both Teaching and that which is taught, so to Torah is both an instruction and that which is instructed. Both are reality itself.
The Zen of God is the Zen of the Now. It is a Zen of both action and union. We come to Big Mind through our practice and through our practice, come to know that our practice is God Himself making Himself known here and now. through our practice.
Both of these are correct. We can begin at Small Mind or at Big Mind. Yet in both cases we must eventually realize they are one in the same.
Be well.
Aren't those two statements contradictory?!!!!
If the "Big Mind" of Zen is defined by Zen as "The infininite, The Absolute" how can "their sensibilities" be that they "wrap their arms around" it?!!!!!
"they" are limited, finite and far from being absolute ... how can "they" even approach touching "Him" let alone "wrap their arms around" "Him" ???????
Keep in mind we are talking here about the one-and-only highest-order "infinite" not the lower-order ones.
The universe and me are one; God and me are one. and as the Torah alludes, everything, the I Am, is One.
That is a huge misunderstanding of the Torah. .... The "I Am" is One, Unique, Unequaled, Eternal..... etc but He is not "everything". That "everything" consists of "Him" and everything else. That "everything else" was created by "Him" and is under "His" absolute control.... to let exist... to annihiliate ... to change .... all according to "His Will". That is what the Torah say ... and by the way both the Injile and Qura'n say the same.
Yes, absolutely contradictory. Zen is nothing if not contradictory. God is God regardless of how he is defined, understood, or need, by humans. I am saying there are some people who understand him one way, others who understand him another.
ThinkAloud, there are two truths in Zen Buddhism, the relative and he absolute. The Buddha taught about this as wave and water. Both are separate, yet both are thesame, just different frames of reference. Some of us are inclined to live in the relative truth almost to the exclusion of the absolute. In such a case, our "sensibilities" require and absolute with arms and legs, with a heart, who can judge, etc.
If you are going to explore Zen, be prepared to step out of rational, categorical thinking.
Some Orthodox Jews might agree with you here, but then the entire Chasidic movement would not. The Baal Shem Tov, father of Chasidism, saw God in everything. Judaism, Sufism, even some Christian sects, have mystical traditions, what I consider very Zen-like "higher order" understandings of God. Kabbalistic traditions argue that God is indeed everything, including evil.
Torah is just another word, as is Dharma, for reality. More, Torah is an effort on God's part to manifest in the world. The world instructs us, ThinkAloud, we learn from it. The translation of Torah, by the way, is Instruction.
So, tell me, where is God not?
LW, yes and either one is deeply appreciated.
If that is the case, then there is no way for a Zen-follower to reach any meaningful conclusion.
As for the understanding of God, it is impossible for a lower-order being (or system) to understand a higher-order being (or system). a human mind can only understand God's attributes (not nature) through God's hints to him.... through God's creations and words. It is not an open-for-chioce affair. you cant just understand something that is beyond your mental capacity by making things up according to your own wishes. If you dont believe in his words and that what you see are his creations ... then leave the object alone .... you cant understand anything without information about it. The only information we have about God's attributes is His words and His creation ... His nature is totally beyond the human capacity to invision
You cant take the Creation and make it the Creator ... there is no basis for you to do that. but then again ... you said there is no logic in Zen. so it is kind of usless even to argue about that.
The translation of Torah, by the way, is Instruction. So, tell me, where is God not?
That is exactly what it means. It is His gudielines for humans to follow in their lives, to understand His attributes and the universe He created around them.
His attributes are in everything He created. His spirit, His Mercy, His power, His grace ... etc. BUT , HE , Himslef is NOT in anything he created .... He is Unique, Indivisible ONE.
He exists as His attributes (not as Himself) in everything He created.
So you say. I disagree. To understand in the way Zen approaches something is to see as one does approaching a koan.You cannot take the words for the thing and reason will not help you.
So you see God as divided? His attributes are separate from him? This is dualistic thinking.
~Waves to TA (and bursts his karma cherry). Where ya been, stranger? I've not forgotten your kindness, and have since enjoyed slightly better circumstances, allowing me to send it on down the line.
Hello Lw.... i am glad that you feel better now ... best wishes to you both ... health-wise and also in everything else.
as for me ... i am as i have always been ... working and enjoying my semiretirement.
I am gald i was exiled from this site ... i just come in to see how things are ... not very well as i can see. I always read your articles though ... and post a comment here and there ... no desire to write here anymore ... it is a futile effort to write for closed minds and egomaniacs. present company excluded of course
I see God as divided?????? i just said He is Indivisible !!!! how can you reach that conclusion?
of course His attributes are separate from Him ... just as yours are separate from YOU as a human being, as strength is separate from the steel, as light is separate from the sun. If you go inside the sun ... would you find light? it is outside the object that you see its attributes. if you go inside a radio transimitter ... would you find electromagnetic waves? if you search yourself would you find love? compassion? generosity? thoughts? feelings? .... none whatsover ..... none of these attributes exist in the object that emits them..... the object creates them.... they are not the object and they are not part of it. When i said "He exists as His attributes" i did not mean that literally. What i meant was that His existence is represented by His attributes. Something similar to the fact that when you send a gift to someone, your existence is represented at where they are by your gift.
ThinkAloud, Let me start over just a bit. I do not see God as a "being" at all. I do not see God as transcendent, but rather, as immanent. God, Big Mind, Infinite, is just that, everything, the entire universe as a whole.
WB, TA
but TA, I had no idea you'd been exiled! What in the world for?
For challenging the nonsense ... but dont worry .. it is ok. i am glad it happened. it proved my point ... subject closed.
I do not see God as a "being" at all. I do not see God as transcendent, but rather, as immanent. God, Big Mind, Infinite, is just that, everything, the entire universe as a whole.
Sodaiho ... i am very surprised at you.....
the universe is limited (no matter how vast it looks) and not eternal ... it had a beginning ... the Big Bang ... how can that be the Infininte, the Eternal .... The One?????
You dont believe that God Spoke with Moses??? or that He delivered the Israelites from Egypt? ...etc. Those were the acts of A Being not just of an undefined concept .....
The "universe as a whole" doesnt do anything other than RUN according to certain laws ... can that be the "God" in your understanding?????
I am really trying to understand your concept of God ... but it doesnt make any sense to me ...
Me too, but I confess, any understanding of God by definition must be irrational. So, maybe we must trust our experience. Begin a practice of regular meditation. Sit facing a wall and be present. Sooner or later your cosmic egg will crack.
As to Moses, I believe God spoke to Moses, delivering the Torah to Him. I believe God speaks to all of us who sit quietly, set ourselves aside, and listen. What that God is, exactly, I don't know. I really don't think God can be described. Its almost as Maimonides argued, we must define God through negation.
Be well
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